Zone 2 training

Good afternoon all,

I’ve recently read some research online talking about the benefits of long zone 2 trainer rides (in addition to interval rides).

Since I don’t have a power meter, I put on my HR moniter and hit the trainer for 2 hrs. I did well staying in zone 2, was there for around 1 hr 48 minutes of the two hours.

My question: was this helpful at all? I felt like I wasn’t getting any workout in, I was going slow, etc. I felt like I had a much better workout during my 2x20’s earlier this week.

Any advice? I’m beginning training for the Syracuse 70.3 FYI

Thanks

Chris

How did you establish your Z2?

Assuming you used zone 2 per this definition:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-training-levels,-by-andrew-coggan.aspx

yes, you did some good. For 2 hour rides, you might as well go to the high end of zone 2, or zone 3 though. Get more bang for your buck.

Not the most scientific way (I’m new to this), but I hve a polar hr moniter, connected to my phone, and the polar app breaks down my hr into zone 1-5

I’m guessing it’s based off of the info I typed in during the beginning, and maybe based off of my max I’ve had while wearing it

I averaged around 134 (edit)

Chris
.

I like doing 70% of threshold rides. But those type of rides can get very tiring in the 2nd and 3rd hours.

I would guess you are doing very low Zone 2, which is why it doesn’t feel difficult enough.

If a person had an abundance of time to train then lots of Z2 work would make sense. For the majority of us we have limited training time. For my part, during the winter when I ride something like 6-10 hours per week I pretty much only do Z2 during warm up, cool down or between intervals. Otherwise it is tempo or higher, with the exception of some longer 2 hour trainer rides that are intended for recovery. When you are time crunched the endurance pace is something you do in order to facilitate the harder stuff, not very much as an end in of itself. At least that is my philosophy on it.

Assuming you used zone 2 per this definition:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/...y-andrew-coggan.aspx

yes, you did some good. For 2 hour rides, you might as well go to the high end of zone 2, or zone 3 though. Get more bang for your buck.

Question for you Jack! I’ve occasionally heard that I’m better off being in Zone 2 or Zone 4 if time crunched. What physiological/real world benefits are there of doing Zone 3 workouts?

IMHO, for a fixed amount of time, the harder you go the more fitness you get from it.

Somehow some people have worked themselves into some twisted logic wherein zone 3 is “bad” somehow. I do not agree with that, and certainly there are examples of elite world championship level athletes that do lots of ‘sweet spot’ training.

So, anyway, the best intensity to go for any given workout will depend on how much time you have to train in a given week, what other training you are doing, etc etc. If you aren’t running much, and only have 3 hours a week to bike, better do all of that in zones 3/4

If you are running a lot and biking 10 hours a week, probably a lot of that will be zone 2 or you will pass out.

Assuming you used zone 2 per this definition:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/...y-andrew-coggan.aspx

yes, you did some good. For 2 hour rides, you might as well go to the high end of zone 2, or zone 3 though. Get more bang for your buck.

Question for you Jack! I’ve occasionally heard that I’m better off being in Zone 2 or Zone 4 if time crunched. What physiological/real world benefits are there of doing Zone 3 workouts?

IMHO, for a fixed amount of time, the harder you go the more fitness you get from it.

Somehow some people have worked themselves into some twisted logic wherein zone 3 is “bad” somehow. I do not agree with that, and certainly there are examples of elite world championship level athletes that do lots of ‘sweet spot’ training.

So, anyway, the best intensity to go for any given workout will depend on how much time you have to train in a given week, what other training you are doing, etc etc. If you aren’t running much, and only have 3 hours a week to bike, better do all of that in zones 3/4

If you are running a lot and biking 10 hours a week, probably a lot of that will be zone 2 or you will pass out.

Assuming you used zone 2 per this definition:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/...y-andrew-coggan.aspx

yes, you did some good. For 2 hour rides, you might as well go to the high end of zone 2, or zone 3 though. Get more bang for your buck.

Question for you Jack! I’ve occasionally heard that I’m better off being in Zone 2 or Zone 4 if time crunched. What physiological/real world benefits are there of doing Zone 3 workouts?

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the clarification. I’d heard that zone 3 is junk from a coach but didn’t have context for the statement so never understood why. Thanks again for clarifying.

I think that “junk” is a poor term that people use.

As Jack began saying, Typically “zone 2” (human construct) is mostly mandated when athletes are putting in a larger volume of training. 8+ hours / week. Once in this range, a large amount of harder training has a higher potential to go down the path of over-training. Therefore, to train a lot, a lot of your training needs to be “zone 2”. This in no way means that ALL training should be zone 2. Intervals are most certainly warranted and needed throughout the year. However, the type and amount tend to vary with different goals.

As training hours come down, it is possible to handle higher %s of time at higher zone levels.

Typically disaster occurs when people try to train hard and train a lot. Your body can most certainly handle this for short amounts of time, perhaps weeks. However, most individuals typically end up in an over-trained state where their performance suffers. Ultimately all that hard work you put in was wasted as your body can no longer cope. We see this happen more often in those who spend their long rides in zone 3 and thus our recommendation tends to be to chose zone 2 over zone 3. Again, always understanding that hard intervals are a necessity as well. Typically when people tone long training rides down from zone 3 into zone 2, they report an improved ability to complete / push their hard workouts for the week. ultimately this tends to make them perform better.

On top of all of this, you body has preferential choice of how it powers exercise. There is an intensity dependent drive toward aerobic or anaerobic. In our experience the largest aerobic gains occur when an athlete spends significant time in a workload that the body is able to achieve aerobically. Once the workload outpaces the aerobic supply, the body typically chooses the path of least resistance and focuses more on anaerobic. This creates a situation in which the body preferentially chooses Anaerobic instead of Aerobic and leads to decreased performance.

Of course all of this is dependent on your abilities, current fitness and goals.
I would not train a 10k runner like a marathoner.

I’m currently following Friel’s methods (Training BIble and Your Best triathlon), and he’s a huge Z2 proponent. During the next 12 weeks, I’m supposed to be doing mostly z2 work, and in the next 4-8 weeks, almost exclusively z2 work. His reasoning is that you get the bulk of your aerobic endurance from this type of training, and save your peak for race time. These z2 workouts aren’t a pushover though - the volume is high, higher than that of the later race sharpening weeks, so lots of hours.

I unintentionally did a similar z2 type build 2 years ago for a HIM following a free plan that coincidentally ended up working out similar to Friel, and I’d have to agree with everything Friel claims in his book - the bulk of your race results will come from the 8-16 weeks of solid z2 basebuilding, and NOT from the hard intervals and higher intensity sessions later on.

I also will note that it’s pretty important to have a true-tested z2, not some off estimate that you just entered in by a formula but with no testing. If I’m in shape and running or biking at the upper end of zone2, it actually feels like a pretty solid effort - only a bit slower than my half ironman race pace, so it’s still no slouch of an effort. (In the early build, I stay at the lower end of z2, which is significantly slower, but over 12 weeks it’ll be pushed up to the upper end of z2 for me.)

IMHO, for a fixed amount of time, the harder you go the more fitness you get from it.

Somehow some people have worked themselves into some twisted logic wherein zone 3 is “bad” somehow. I do not agree with that, and certainly there are examples of elite world championship level athletes that do lots of ‘sweet spot’ training.

So, anyway, the best intensity to go for any given workout will depend on how much time you have to train in a given week, what other training you are doing, etc etc. If you aren’t running much, and only have 3 hours a week to bike, better do all of that in zones 3/4

If you are running a lot and biking 10 hours a week, probably a lot of that will be zone 2 or you will pass out.

Assuming you used zone 2 per this definition:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/...y-andrew-coggan.aspx

yes, you did some good. For 2 hour rides, you might as well go to the high end of zone 2, or zone 3 though. Get more bang for your buck.

Question for you Jack! I’ve occasionally heard that I’m better off being in Zone 2 or Zone 4 if time crunched. What physiological/real world benefits are there of doing Zone 3 workouts?

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the clarification. I’d heard that zone 3 is junk from a coach but didn’t have context for the statement so never understood why. Thanks again for clarifying.

I haven’t posted in a while, so, I’ll keep my account active with this one…

Actually, more correctly, Zone/Level 2 is “junk”. I remember doing a USAC power clinic in San Fran a couple years ago and was asked a very similar question. I told them I don’t set out to prescribe ANY L2, even in the “Base” phase, there was a gasp from the throng (ok, a bit of an overstatement, but there were probably 60 in attendance and there really was a collective gasp… I have that effect on people), and the questioner had a puzzled look on her face. I elaborated by saying I figure out 1) how much total time there is to train 2) how much/many interval(s) training there will be and the rest is pretty much L2. For the most part, L2 is really filler and there is really very little training bang for the buck unless you’re training 20 hr per week. At the same time, it’s typically the default level the athlete reverts to when recovering between hard efforts, so, most get plenty of it without any focused effort. Along these lines, at the clinic, in an attempt to alleviate the questioner’s quizzical look, I further clarified that it didn’t mean that my athletes don’t do any L2, quite the contrary, unless you’re only training 6 hr per week, between WU, CD and rest between intervals and easy days, L2 is still typically the single biggest component of training load. That being said, it shouldn’t be a target training zone/level; at it least shouldn’t be for most people. Even athletes who are training really hard (think of the hardest ass trainer you can think of) still get the majority of their training in L2 by default.

In contrast to this, L3 is actually quite good in terms of bang for the buck. You can do a fair bit of it frequently with minimal requisite recovery. Granted, extended periods of L3 focus may lead to staleness, but as a focus of the “base” phase, it’s hard to go wrong doing a bunch of L3. Still, if you plot your overall training zone/level distribution during this period, it should still come out with L2 being the single largest component, that is unless your total volume is low.

There is the old school mentality that L3 falls into the “no man’s land” region of training, but that’s really a remnant of the days when all we had was Polar Vantage monitors, Winning Mag and Eddie B’s book to go by for training guidance. Anybody who says that L3 is junk is a bit like an unfrozen caveman lawyer.

Thanks Steve and Xtr for the more in depth answers. I love the science side of the sport and really appreciate you taking the time to type that out. :slight_smile:

Steve.,

I think that i fall among the majority of time crunched athletes. I only have 5h of bike training per week. How should I divide it between zones? Can you estimate a ratio?
Like 60% Z3, 20% Z4 and up and 20% Z1 and Z2?

Thanks

Not the most scientific way (I’m new to this), but I hve a polar hr moniter, connected to my phone, and the polar app breaks down my hr into zone 1-5

I’m guessing it’s based off of the info I typed in during the beginning, and maybe based off of my max I’ve had while wearing it

I averaged around 134 (edit)

Chris
The zone 2 your app had you use could be dead on for you or be the heck way off, it all depends on your physiology compared to the norms used for things like 220-Age, Max HR (whatever that is), etc.

Read this article from D3Multisport on how to do a field LT test:
(http://d3multisport.com/heart-rate-training/defining-triathlon-training-zones-and-paces/)

After the test input the measured HR avg into the spreadsheet available here:
(http://d3multisport.com/athletes-tools-and-charts/calculating-heart-rate-zones-excel-tool/)

You now have HR zones based on your physiology.

Repeat for the run if your looking at doing HR zone training for it too.

Enjoy the testing as a nice hard training day and repeat in ~8 weeks to see if LT has changed. It really shouldn’t but 1st time you do the tests sometimes your not accustomed to it and may leave a some on the table or you go too hard initially and fall off for the 2nd half.

Not the most scientific way (I’m new to this), but I hve a polar hr moniter, connected to my phone, and the polar app breaks down my hr into zone 1-5

I’m guessing it’s based off of the info I typed in during the beginning, and maybe based off of my max I’ve had while wearing it

I averaged around 134 (edit)

Chris
The zone 2 your app had you use could be dead on for you or be the heck way off, it all depends on your physiology compared to the norms used for things like 220-Age, Max HR (whatever that is), etc.

Read this article from D3Multisport on how to do a field LT test:
(http://d3multisport.com/heart-rate-training/defining-triathlon-training-zones-and-paces/)

After the test input the measured HR avg into the spreadsheet available here:
(http://d3multisport.com/athletes-tools-and-charts/calculating-heart-rate-zones-excel-tool/)

You now have HR zones based on your physiology.

Repeat for the run if your looking at doing HR zone training for it too.

Enjoy the testing as a nice hard training day and repeat in ~8 weeks to see if LT has changed. It really shouldn’t but 1st time you do the tests sometimes your not accustomed to it and may leave a some on the table or you go too hard initially and fall off for the 2nd half.

Thanks for the info, definitely have dive in deeper if in going to get serious in this sport

“On top of all of this, you body has preferential choice of how it powers exercise. There is an intensity dependent drive toward aerobic or anaerobic. In our experience the largest aerobic gains occur when an athlete spends significant time in a workload that the body is able to achieve aerobically.”

This is interesting and something I’ve long wondered. To make it all about me, I have a capacity to ‘comfortably’ ride at zone 3 and even 4 for long durations. I can do this with regular frequency without getting cooked, but high intensity/short duration workouts absolutely wreck me. My quandary has been do I work on my weaknesses but get crushed in the process or simply get better at what comes naturally by doing lots of it?

Probably an easier question for tris than bike racing.

If you were only doing tris, or TTs, I would just keep working those strengths!

“On top of all of this, you body has preferential choice of how it powers exercise. There is an intensity dependent drive toward aerobic or anaerobic. In our experience the largest aerobic gains occur when an athlete spends significant time in a workload that the body is able to achieve aerobically.”

This is interesting and something I’ve long wondered. To make it all about me, I have a capacity to ‘comfortably’ ride at zone 3 and even 4 for long durations. I can do this with regular frequency without getting cooked, but high intensity/short duration workouts absolutely wreck me. My quandary has been do I work on my weaknesses but get crushed in the process or simply get better at what comes naturally by doing lots of it?

Probably an easier question for tris than bike racing.

Yeah, but that’s the question for bike racing. I believe training is somewhat holistic; if you hate a workout, you won’t likely apply the effort to get the desired outcome. For me that’s :15-1 minute, and it’s tough to put myself in the box if I’m tired, it’s a hot day and so on. Add those up over the course of the season and it’s a significant number.

However, I don’t have to think about doing 90 minutes of a two hour workout at 85% or more. Does that address my weakness? Not really, but can it be more beneficial to building fitness? That what I’d like to know.

what does your coach say?? :slight_smile:

i only do sporadic intervals under 1 min and by that i mean 10-30sec and usually only 1 day per week. sporadic in that i just do those on uphills, every uphill of a ride, so 14-20 brief efforts. i can’t do these back to back to back, usually about 3min between based on route. any benefit??? helps me know what i can or cannot recover from on race day if needed, but i will never be a sprinter or climber.

i need to figure out a plan of attack for next season, after two bad ones in a row. the 85-95% stuff in dec-feb with 4hr weekend days at 75%(attempting to tax aerobic system after tiring it out with 5 prior days) had me at my highest ftp ever in mid feb(back to back indoor TT days). then i sabotaged my season for health reasons and had zero consistency for the season.

your challenge, which i abondoned, has me able to doing 92% for 75 min yesterday and 95% for 75min today on trainer and it felt pretty comfortable, so maybe i could bump it back up, but i will enter an easy period here with daylight savings change. like you, the SS stuff comes fairly easy to me.