Zipp's useless efforts. My rant not against, but to change minds

I know there are a lot of people out there who are really fond of zipp products and paying wayyyy too much for something that really isn’t that expensive, but I just need to get this off my chest. Consumers and dealers should re-consider when buying zipp products. I’m not implying that zipp is a terrible product, because it isn’t, it’s a good product but I think that many consumers have been mislead into believing that there is some aero-dynamic advantages to zipp wheels compared to HED, or Corima, or Credit-Agricole’s PRO. Golf ball dimples on a wheel is completely useless, not to mention a rear wheel as well. It is a KNOWN fact amongst aero junkies that the front wheel is far more important in terms of aero-dynamics than the rear wheel, we can look at wind tunnel testing, and sure we see the difference, obviously any flat surface’s aero data will differ when comparing to a surface filled with dimples, the air travels completely differently over different surfaces so obviously zipp can say well here are the differences, and if you’re a zero pound rider and you have no wind resistance against you which is impossible if you’re riding a bike, you’ll save 40 seconds over 40k or whatever. BULLOCKS. Any aero wheel of the same size and shape will be just as effective. Cyclists need to look beyond “trying to convince” wind tunnel tests and look more towards their own personal performances. Golf ball dimples are on golf balls so that golf balls can fly straighter and more effective through the air. These dimples are totally useless at lower speeds, however at high intensity make a difference. Cyclists can’t ride fast enough for these dimples to make a difference in their speeds, not to mention that a wheel is mounted on a bicycle and is steered by a rider therfore the wheel is completely restricted and cannot go anywhere without the direction of the rider. Wheels aren’t golf balls, they aren’t meant to be hit and they definitely do not share any characteristics which can benefit from a dimpled surface. They do not fly straight through the air, they just displace air and redirect slightly into other obstructions such as your legs. But sure it looks cool, and people who want them will go out and buy them regardless just because of the looks and name. Well that’s cool. If Dimples really made the difference for wheels, then why isnt there a dimpled frame, don’t you think cervelo would put dimples in their frames if the dimples made a difference? When you take a crash are you going to crash faster because of the dimples on your bike? therefore reducing your crash time by .0123 seconds? You can benefit just as much from any low weight aero-wheel. As far as pricing goes for customers, 2000$ a wheelset sometimes more, and sometimes just a little bit less, again image is everything for most, so it doesn’t matter what this rant says it wont change their minds. But when you buy zipps, just know that you are over paying when you can receive just as much aero benefit from any other company for about 500 to 600$ less. Zipps bearing are for the birds by the way.
Retailers, you can go into any shop and buy zipp. Anywhere in the world, for zipp, a sale is a sale, there are crappy sale margins, and you also have to compete with online retailers. These days it’s so easy for virtually anyone to get zipps at OEM pricing, and what’s it going to do to your store, or the store next to yours who also gets zipp, or even the store around the block who gets zipp, and the other store accross town who gets zipp… It’s going to ruin your business. In terms of ethics, zipp is for the birds. Look cool product, attempting to be innovative +++ Monopolizing their market and actually respecting territories of store owners —. Clearly there will be some comment that says i’m an idiot and don’t know what i’m talking about and that aero dynamic professionals are way smarter than i am, but people can tell me this when they finishing their 3rd year as a university student with an engineering major.

cheers.

I might understand what you are saying if you structure your post into coherent thoughts. Use paragraphs and bullet points. If you want to change my mind, that is.

Anything worth reading here other than unproven opining??

“Clearly there will be some comment that says i’m an idiot…”

Okay. You’re an idoit.

Now that we’ve gotten that part out of the way, let the real discussion begin.

I agree…but this forum isn’t the right place, there are many here who only believe you have to use these wheels. Even thought the hubs are crap.

I also agree with the second poster…edit and reformat

i will later on but i have no time to do it right now, i have to go to the pool.

I got 3 lines in and my head started spinning. No clue if there is a gem in there anywhere.

Well that discredits you right there. Every triathlete knows arguing on a message board about gear is much more important than swimming. Not to mention that swimming isn’t important in the first place :wink:

          I hope you notified your next of kin before starting this thread.Peronally I have to choose between buying Zipp products and buying food.Until I start B.B.Q'ing the neighbourhood pets I'll have to save my money for the supermarket.

I actually choose a new wheelset over the entire bike.

those zipps look sweet on my schwinn varsity.

First off talking about price should be completely out of the equation. Zipp should sell their products for whatever they can get. They are clearly a luxury item aimed at the affluent.

As far as performance, Josh at Zipp has repeatedly said that both the dimples and the bearings are aimed at getting every tiny amount of performance possible. I’ve got to believe that better bearings result in more speed, so the only debate is how much more. So if someone has the $$ and wants to spend it gaining a second or two thats not my business.

As to the dimples, I’ve never seen an independant test that shows a benefit, or a lack of benefit. If you have some I would be very interested. I have to beleive that the surface finish has some effect, so the dimples are either faster or slower. The amount faster is worth is a question that is up to the consumer.

My question for you is you obviously have an axe to grind. Surely their are other corporations in the world making products or having pricing policies that are much more heinous than Zipp, so wahts the deal?

Styrrell

I’m a 4th year PhD student in an engineering major, so does my opinion count?

I’ve taken plenty of CFD and transport phenomena, back up your points with data or quiet down.

Sounds like someone was turned down for sponsorship :slight_smile:

Aloha,
Matt
.

Now *that’s *funny.

Not to mention that swimming isn’t important in the first place

I know. That was 12 years of my life that I will never get back :slight_smile:

Tour Magazine seems to think that Zipps offer a fair bit of performace over Corima. Keep in mind the first two on the list use Zipp rims. This test was done by a German magazine of no affiliation to Zipp.

Watt-usage at 50kph/31mph real-life wind simulation

Zipp 808 18.1
Ritchey WCS Carbon 19.3
Hed 3 19.7
Vuelta Carbon Pro WR 20.8
Easton Tempest II Carbon 21.6
CKT Splendor 21.7
Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL 21.9
Shimano WH-7801 Carbon 50 22.9
Campagnolo Bora G3 23
Rose Aerospoke 23.0
Corima Turbospoke 23.1
Bontrager Race X-Lite Aero 23.4
Fulcrum Racing Speed 23.7
Gipiemme Carbon 5.5 24.1
Tune Olympic Gold 24.1
Shimano WH-7801 Carbon 24.4
FRM FL-R 23 SD Aerolight 24.6
Corima Aero 24.7
Lightweight Obermayer 24.8
Xentis Mark 1 25
Citec 3000s aero 25.5
Shimano WH-R560 26.1
Lightweight Ventoux/Classic 27.3
Campagnolo Eurus 27.8
Tune Skyline 28.1
FSA RD-600 28.7
Mavic Aksium Race 30.0
Citec 3000S 30.6
Ambrosio X-Carbo 31.5
Campagnolo Hyperon 32.1
Mavic Ksyrium ES 33.2

Furthermore, I agree that their pricing is high but it’s mine and your money, we don’t have to spend it on what we can’t afford. Zipp does new things(deeper rims, dimples, clincher discs) that they feel justify a higher price for research, new molds and further growth. As long as the majority of customers continue purchasing this technology yours is a pretty moot argument.

Side note, I’d like to see your proof that dimples don’t work.

Have you priced the PRO wheels and aerobars, very nice & very expensive. But overall your right, most of this stuff is overpriced but it seems like prices are coming down (on carbon frames at least).

Dave in VA

Hey there, Ha, great post. You’ve got a ton of good points but I still gotta disagree with you or at least provide color commentary on a few. Taking a break from some work so a bit of typing is a nice distraction.

Now Zipps are expensive, and yes you can find them at a lot of shops (that’s what getting popular and mainstream gets you:), and yes the dimpling is debateable in terms of aerodynamics, and yes they are expensive, but the devil they are surely not. Actually as an engineering major I’d think you’d appreciate a lot of what they do and understand the costs and risks they take a bit better. Yes you’ll also see some of the excess work they put in too in the search of the “uber wheel,” but hey it’s all in fun right:)

-Dimples, yeah, debateable, good chance they do work although if they do again the difference is probably pretty small. However in a world where people go in search of that 1 extra watt, well, every little advance turns into a little bit bigger advance than it really is. Now branding, this is where the dimples are a killer feature. WHy do you remember Zipps? I bet the dimples are a big part of it. When team XYZ rider eschues his current wheel sponsor and pops on a seemingly stealth non-decalled Zipp front, well those dimples are a dead giveaway. Product branding and free advertising at it’s best. And those dimples definitely make those wheels a bit more lustworthy. Coaching off and on has taught me one thing, it’s all about the dimples. Most people I coach who want Zipps have no idea how much time they might take off, they don’t know wheel weights, know nothing about bearings, hubs, bladed spokes, tire widths, braking track types, rim shapes, how the wheel spins in accordance with lunar cycles, they don’t know diddly on wheel tech. BUT they do know that dimples make you faster (or at least they might) and they want the dimples. Nobody else produces wheels so easily recognizable as Zipp and that’s one reason people lust over them and then when they get them covet them and love the way their friends drool over them, plus it helps that with the dimples more people can recognize the wheels for a few more oohs and aaahs:)

Now on ther other points, well I need to get back to work but… zipp hubs, okay, you can’t seriously be putting these down, have you taken one apart and checked it out??? I’m a ME grad, about 99% through my ME masters specializing in design and production with a lot of hands on mill time working in an advanced materials/composites lab and good god those hubs are gorgeous! Just wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

Wheel weight, lowest weights at each depth (well unless you count Reynolds and Lightweight) and again as an engineer you know that lower weight means tighter tolerances, dancing around that factor for safety line a LOT closer, and in turn a LOT higher costs.

anyways, after saying all this, I have a pair of HED H3c wheels coming in to replace my Zipp 909 setup:) So while I respect Zipp for it’s gorilla with a dual PhD in engineering and marketing push (okay, maybe a masters in marketing, guess you can’t be a PhD there…) and think they are really cool. I think there are some really cool other brands out there as well:)

baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack to woooooooooork

Zipps are expensive, but they’re still a hell of a lot more affordable than a set of Lew Racing wheels.

It is a KNOWN fact amongst aero junkies that the front wheel is far more important in terms of aero-dynamics than the rear wheel
Actually, it is a known fact amongst aero junkies that the data on this question are mixed, with some reports actually indicated that it is the rear wheel that is more important. In any case, it is clearly incorred to state that the front wheel is FAR more important, as you have done.