Someone made the statement below in the discussion the other day about Zipp wheels and no one said anything to respond. I was just wondering if this is a real concern or is an issue that has been addressed or what, thanks.
"In the past all Zipps spokes have come out of the rims at an angle. Just look closely and you can see how clear this is. This puts great stress on the spokes, no matter what type of spokes they are, and especially cornering, Zipps are suscepitable to breaking spokes.
I have experienced many pro athletes and top age group athletes suffer broken spokes in races.
This is a fatal flaw in Zipp technology. The nipples inside the carbon rims need continual maintenence IE. oiling so they don’t seize up, and corrode (espically trithletes with salty water and sweat dripping off their bodies) and become weake also contributing to spokes breaking.
Zipps are light, and pretty aero. But you have to be aware that they take a lot more maitence than any other wheel, and I wouldn’t drop that kind of money on some wheels with such a technology flaw such as their sopke angle.
Spend you money on some cheaper wheels, which are questionably as aero, have less maintenence, and wont break spokes on you."
I have two friends that have broken more then one spoke with zipp’s. Chalked it up to the fact that they are bigger (190’s) guys on wheels designed on very lightweight pro riders.
I know a fast woman AG’er, maybe 135 lbs who broke a spoke on a 303 front last year. They do break, but I don’t know if they break any more than any other spoked wheel. That would really suck in an IM though.
Spokes come out of any rim at an angle. Most spoke holes are designed for that. I haven’t seen any zipp spokes break at the rim at any races and their are a ot of them out their.
that seems like the type of post that had it been about Cervelo, Dan would have pulled it. No “trial by internet”, etc.
My personal experience with Zipp wheels: I bought a used pair of 440s back in '99 and have raced on them for hundreds of miles with relatively little maintenance and zero problems. I kind of hope they die soon only so I can justify the purchase of a new set!
For many, the price of Zipps is prohibitive. But if you can afford them, my experience suggests they are a product of the absolute highest quality.
that seems like the type of post that had it been about Cervelo, Dan would have pulled it. No “trial by internet”, etc.
I agree, as I said, those aren’t my words (I actually toned the original post down a little bit). If this is somehow inappropriate I will take it down, it just seemed like a pretty serious charge and I was wondering if anyone had similar experiences.
I think it’s a legitimate post. he is asking for comments on that statement that was posted and wasn’t hyping it. Now if the title had been “DON’T RIDE ZIPP’S THEY"LL ASSPLODE ON YOU” then it should be pulled.
I honestly don’t know what that poster was talking about. All the zipp spokes I’ve seen are threaded into a nipple which is then seated in the carbon rim. At the hub the spoke again goes directly into the hub body. the spoke is in perfect axial loading with no bending load except for possibly at the exit of the hub body. Their design looks alot safer and stronger than most designs out there and most wheels have traditionally used a j-bend at the hub body anyways which by this arguement should all fail catastrophically… Especially those damn tank like Mavic CXP21 training wheels and such:)
The corrosion problem could come into play I suppose but Zipp uses high quality alloys in their construction and most likely seals or coats the ends of the nipples in some type of anti-corrosion compound. i live in Hawaii where everything rusts and have had zero problems with my Zipps. Other wheels, well we’ll just say scotchbright pads are my friends!
Zipps are lightweight push the boundaries of lightweight and performance wheels. Like any high performance part which cuts it as close to that factor of safety as possible, breakage will occur. It’s the price you pay for that 10g weight savings that we all are so addicted to:) If you want bombproof wheels, get bombproof wheels. Same reason that on my new road bike I’m ordering I’ll have cheapy heavy high spoke count wheels for everyday use. Heavy and not very fast feeling but durable and I’ll never have to worry about them. Throw on the Zipps or HEDS for racing.
I’m not sure I know of any wheel where the spokes don’t come out at an angle. All road wheels, the hub flange is wider than the hoop, so the spoke will be angled. I don’t really get what the original person is trying to say. Any spoked wheel is susceptible to breaking spokes. A wheel with fewer spokes in more likely. And a radially laced wheel is probably even more likely. However, fewer spokes are faster, and Zipps are meant to be race wheels. If you don’t want to break a spoke, buy an all-composite wheel.
first, zipp has very good customer support and service. i have had several problems with zipp rims, but never w/ any of zipp’s sapim spokes. or at least not yet, as i do not put a lot of miles on my zipps (they are expensive and their is no point unless i am racing).
zipp does not have any “fatal” flaws that i know of, but i am sure their products, while extraordinarily good, could always be further improved. but you could say that about 99.999% of all manufactured products. and i think pretty much any super low spoke count wheel will have more problems (especially occasional spoke breakage) than a high spoke count wheel, all other things being equal. the load on each spoke is vastly greater on zipps and comparable wheels.
and looking at many zipp rims very carefully, it is very difficult for me to say if they drill the spoke holes at an angle to accomodate the relative spoke angle. on wheels with small inner rim diameters (like zipp 700c 808s and 650c 404s) where there is a very visible spoke angle (front wheels especially), it appears that if zipp drills the holes at an angle, it is not sufficient for the angle of the spoke. but the next question is: does this matter, since they don’t have any major breakage issues?
another thing, oil between carbon and a spoke nipple is a bad idea. the compounds in oil are not good for the composite when there is a long-term exposure.
Zipp does drill the spoke holes at an angle. This is one of the major improvements on their 2005+ wheels, along with the dimpled rims. The 202’s were the first to feature angled spoke holes in 2004, but the rest of the line quickly adopted this. As others have mentioned, it becomes critical on deeper section rims such as the 808. It probably doesn’t not eliminate 100% of the strain at the spoke/nipple area, but it certainly helps. The older rims had the holes drilled straight (perpendicular to the rim), and there was a much more visible bend in the spoke near its insertion to the nipple. So to address your original quote, the angled spokes HELP, not HURT.
I don’t think that Zipps require more maintenance than other wheels. On my ‘training’ wheels, I rebuild the Ultegra hubs at least once per year. With Zipps, you will obviously need to eventually replace the cartridge bearings, but it isn’t an annual maintenance interval; you just replace them when they feel rough (i.e. the finger test). The only thing I have had to do to my Zipps is lube the freehub pawls after riding in pouring rain. It is a simple operation that takes no more than a few minutes (unless you’re me and you take the time to remove the cassette, clean it, and meticulously clean the rest of the wheel…).
Any wheel can break spokes. Many things play in to this, like the number of spokes, spoking pattern, rim/hub/spoke dimensions, and most importantly, the care taken during the wheel build. I personally take great pride and care in my work and haven’t broken a single spoke on any of my handbuilt wheels.
perhaps, but if you actaully look at 2005 808s, it is by no means obvious that the holes are drilled at an angle, as the spokes do bend a lot at the nipple (mostly on the front and rear, non-driveside).
interestingly, on 2003 404s, you can see that the spoke holes are drilled at an angle…
I think the orginal poster was saying that on many Zipps, the spokes bend coming out of the rim, and are therefore not straight, which is what he/she was complaining about. I missed this at first as well and thought they were complaining about the spokes being straight but at an angle. Zipp is clearly addressing this, and if it was a major problem, you can be sure this forum would be a place it would come out.
Yeah, Zipp wheels suck and no one should ride them…send them to me and I will be sure that they are all properly taken care of.
What is it with people and their “freinds” who break gear - it all must suck! I dont think that there is anything that is anygood. People need to get over the fact that bike parts break. We all want them lighter, lighter and lighter…then bitch about things breaking.
I have some wheels for anyone who does not like Zipps - Mavic Open 4CD rim, 36 spokes, 3x on a Phil Wood 8 speed hub (14 guage with brass nipples). I promise, you wont break a spoke - ever.
I agree with you, everyone knows someone whose frame cracked from riding in the dark or whose iPod doesn’t work after daylight savings time or something crazy.
As I said, that’s not my quote, someone else made the claim (I don’t even know the original poster) I was just curious to hear what people had to say about it.
"I have some wheels for anyone who does not like Zipps - Mavic Open 4CD rim, 36 spokes, 3x on a Phil Wood 8 speed hub (14 guage with brass nipples). "
I had a friend break those too.
The issue is more that us normal folks (not including all you pros and AG winners) enjoy buying the “Hottest” whatever. In most industries manufactures protect us from ourselves but with a lot of road bike makers including wheels, we actually get the same product that were designed and built for the pros. The problems, ours not theirs, is that the pros have a level of maintenance, knowledge and rep vans standing by, that most of us will never have the result is these “pro level” parts break. I think the manufactures/sellers could do a little better job help protecting us from us.
Don’t get me wrong I strongly do not want more warning labels and buyers need to know what they are buying and do a reality check before writing a check.
IE: If you are shopping for Zipp 404’s It would be nice if the salesperson would say buy the Clydesdale or cross versions, they may add a little weight(Not that I would notice) but those versions may survive that pothole on Route 1 a lot better and anyway you just bought those carbon water bottle cages to make up the differnce.
Now let me get my overweight(10lbs) body back on my new 14.9 lbs carbon bike so that I can think about wether I should get the Zipp or Corima wheels because my Mavic sl3 aren’t light or aero enough for my next sprint tri.
Well, it’s just that a lot of people confuse the quality of a product with how it meets it’s intended uses.
A Zipp or similar wheel costs a lot not because of several reasons. One obvious one is the raw materials are more expensive, carbon, higher grade steel, higher grade aluminum, more expensive bearings etc. The other reason (aside from the marketing angle;) is the design and actual fabrication of the wheel or component. When designing for a performance application (versus everyday utility application) the designer nails down a whole bunch of criteria, required strength, fatigue cycles, material properties of various metals, carbon properties and then optimizes the design weighting certain more importatnt properties such as weight, against less important properties such as a super high factor of safety, manufacturing cost, etc. Because of the higher precision in the design process and higher manufacturing tolerances the products performance falls in a very narrow range right at or exceeding it’s intended minimum factor of safety. Hence you get a wheel that performs extraordinarily well up to a certain point and in certain conditions.
A cheaper wheelset is designed with a LOT less attention to lightness, low moment of inertia, precision, etc, and concentrates more on ease of production and minimizing cost. This usually means overshooting your factor of safety mark by a bunch to make sure you can run your manufacturing and material tolerances a lot looser. Hence a cheap wheel is usually more durable (and a lot heavier) than a wheel intended to be a lightweight performance wheel.
At the same time you have companies like Chris King who pride themselves on making really expensive, high quality wheel components that also are very very very durable. They have different criteria in mind then the above two. While they might not be the lightest in the world they work extraordinarily well for a long long time with minimal maintenance. Or pick up a pair of high end mtn bike downhill wheels. Uber expensive, weigh a ton but built to take whatever you throw at them.
Zipp designs to be light and fast, safe to standards above what are usually seen in normal use, and screw the cost. They work exactly how they are intended to work.
“buy the Clydesdale or cross versions, they may add a little weight(Not that I would notice) but those versions may survive that pothole on Route 1 a lot better and anyway”
I agree with this. I believe the Pave version has the 'cross rims on “regular” hubs (straight pull spokes). The clyde version has the beefed up rims plus more spokes. The cross version has the beefy rims, extra spokes, and better sealed hubs. For those who train on their Zipps, I think they should at least spring for the Pave version. Probably just get the Clydes to have more spokes too. The weight difference is insignificant, but they will be more durable in everyday conditions.
