How much time saving over a half-ironman would there be between an old (Zipp Firecrest 404 from 2010) compared to the new Zipp Firecrest 404?
I’d guess with optimal tire choice there will probably be negative savings, you just might need 20c tire for the old wheel. It’s going to be crazy small difference regardless.
ya… Optimal tire size will be a big deal, but also how good of a shape the wheels are.
I’d guess with optimal tire choice there will probably be negative savings, you just might need 20c tire for the old wheel. It’s going to be crazy small difference regardless.
Modern tires don’t come in 20c so we can assume the old wheel with either have a balloon tire or slow ccr tire. The newer wheels will be faster in both cases.
About a $2,000 savings.
if you get the right tire on the old one it may be faster as its narrow
.
The OG 404 carbon clincher with 23mm GP4000 is faster than most any modern wheel with 25mm tire, especially at lower yaw angles, and that tire measure4 24.5mm wide on that rim. A 23mm GP5000 on there would likely be nearly as fast as it’s slightly narrower in actual measurement and considerably lower Crr than the GP4000.
I’d guess with optimal tire choice there will probably be negative savings, you just might need 20c tire for the old wheel. It’s going to be crazy small difference regardless.
Modern tires don’t come in 20c so we can assume the old wheel with either have a balloon tire or slow ccr tire. The newer wheels will be faster in both cases.
Does conti SS not come in 20c anymore? Maybe I should eBay my stockpile!
So… I’d be faster with a 404 Firecrest up front, running a 23 or a 25 than I am with my current early/narrow 1990’s HED 3 with a 23?
I’d guess with optimal tire choice there will probably be negative savings, you just might need 20c tire for the old wheel. It’s going to be crazy small difference regardless.
Modern tires don’t come in 20c so we can assume the old wheel with either have a balloon tire or slow ccr tire. The newer wheels will be faster in both cases.
Does conti SS not come in 20c anymore? Maybe I should eBay my stockpile!
“Modern”
That’s a tire that is simultaneously more puncture prone and slower compared to recently launched tires.
Yes 20mm tires still exist but the question here is about losing time with an old setup.
About a $2,000 savings
That made me laugh!
Buying speed is not as easy as it was back in the 00’s. Everything is already pretty optimised these days. If you have a decent set up even if its a few years old putting $2-3k into wheels is probably not going to be best bang for your buck. Coaching is the often overlooked gain. Even buying your own Notio or investing in some position testing/bike fit advice would probably elicit more speed than updated wheels. Especially now everything seems to be disc and you can’t just go upgrading things as easily anymore. Always fun to have great kit and invest in wheels that put a smile on your face, but for $ per watt/second gained I bet its not the best investment.
I’d guess with optimal tire choice there will probably be negative savings, you just might need 20c tire for the old wheel. It’s going to be crazy small difference regardless.
Modern tires don’t come in 20c so we can assume the old wheel with either have a balloon tire or slow ccr tire. The newer wheels will be faster in both cases.
Does conti SS not come in 20c anymore? Maybe I should eBay my stockpile!
“Modern”
That’s a tire that is simultaneously more puncture prone and slower compared to recently launched tires.
Yes 20mm tires still exist but the question here is about losing time with an old setup.
Conti SS (23 mm and 20 mm) still has one of the lowest crr (considerably better than GP5000) and is not that puncture prone one thinks.
On a Zipp 808 FC front wheel from the 1st generation a SS 20 mm was significantly faster than a SS 23 mm (speeds above 40 km/h) as were other narrow tires compared to 23 mm tires and thicker ones.
On a Zipp 808 FC front wheel from the 1st generation a SS 20 mm was significantly faster than a SS 23 mm (speeds above 40 km/h) as were other narrow tires compared to 23 mm tires and thicker ones.
That’s very interesting. Did you test? How faster is “significantly faster,” if you can share? Thanks!
Lots of great comments but the question was “time savings”. Can anybody quantify what the potential saving would be? I have a similar situation to the op, I own older Zipp 404 Firecrests as well.
…and over 2019 303 NSW, please! It is really tempting to replace these on my road bike.
That’s very interesting. Did you test? How faster is “significantly faster,” if you can share? Thanks!
Velodrome testing with an actual speed of around 45 km/h.
SS20 mm (the „old“ versions, about 10 years ago) was around 5W better than SS23 mm (at 45 km/h, 1013 hPa, 21°C, 8 bar). The narrow Bontrager tire with the lip was also faster than the 23 mm. And a 20 mm Vittoria (don‘t remember the name) was faster too than the 23 mm SS.
Ok, someone immediately will complain that the wooden velodrome had a smooth surface, but on the other side one gets both the effects of CdA and Crr at the traveled speed. Also, look at old ST discussions about the 808 FC, other people too found the narrow tires being faster.
It is difficult at least to quantify time saving over a Half Ironman because of so many unknown variables.
Have to agree with too many variables to quantify. But 9 years ago I had the 808 FC with 20mmSS. The setup felt fast with less resistance.
Lots of great comments but the question was “time savings”. Can anybody quantify what the potential saving would be? I have a similar situation to the op, I own older Zipp 404 Firecrests as well.
You can use the rule of thumb that at typical race speeds, 5 watts is about 0.5 sec/km, or 45 seconds over 90 km. It looks like with a proper tire on the original 404s, you could be a few watts faster than the the new 404s.
So basically just run Zipp 404 firecrest with 23 mm wheels and I am good? Don’t waste money on upgrade to a set of zipp wheels a year old or brand new
Does conti SS not come in 20c anymore? Maybe I should eBay my stockpile!
“Modern”
That’s a tire that is simultaneously more puncture prone and slower compared to recently launched tires.
Yes 20mm tires still exist but the question here is about losing time with an old setup.
20mm SS is neither slow (compared to recent tires) nor puncture prone… but I think they’ve been discontinued…
Veloflex Record in 23 is very narrow though, and also has the lowest Crr last I checked…