I suspect this has been discussed in years past but I can not recall what the conclusions were. In today’s WCTS Cagliari race, the fastest women swam around 19:00 vs the fastest men around 18:30, so about 30 sec or only about 2.7% slower. OTOH, on the bike the fastest women were around 54:00 vs the men at 51:00, the women were 3:00 slower or 5.9% slower. On the run, the fastest women ran around 33:09 vs the fastest men at 29:12 so about 4 min slower or about 13.5%. This certainly not true in the individual events where typically the women are 10-ish % slower than the men in these distances. I suppose that drafting is part of it but why the diff between the swim and bike??? I guess it must be that advantage of drafting on the swim exceeds that on the bike. I’ve been swimming in circles for years but never really noticed the drafting effect, but I guess that just b/c I was too focused on holding the feet of the swimmer in front. I guess that the only true test of SBR would be those races where you start at 5 sec intervals, but some don’t like that b/c you never really know where you are in the race. Any further comments???
In today’s WCTS Cagliari race, the fastest women swam around 19:00 vs the fastest men around 18:30, so about 30 sec or only about 2.7% slower/////
Just stop right there, you are way over your skis on this one. First of all the women got to wear wetsuits, the men did not. And the swim for the women was nice and smooth, mens race was victory at sea…So if you want to handicap the races, add a minute for the wetsuits, and another half + for the conditions…There is your answer…
In today’s WCTS Cagliari race, the fastest women swam around 19:00 vs the fastest men around 18:30, so about 30 sec or only about 2.7% slower/////
Just stop right there, you are way over your skis on this one. First of all the women got to wear wetsuits, the men did not. And the swim for the women was nice and smooth, mens race was victory at sea…So if you want to handicap the races, add a minute for the wetsuits, and another half + for the conditions…There is your answer…
Two thoughts.
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monty makes good points, so the comparison of one event should be ignored and abandoned as a way to consider this question.
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The question is actually an interesting one. If we know that women, on average, are slower than men, in which of the three disciplines are they the closest in terms of percent difference? That would take a much larger data set to determine.
I’m going to do some homework and do 1500, 5k and hour record men and women’s later and see what I find
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Water/sea state conditions 4:45 later were significantly different, as we all saw, and W = wetsuits. Data (and a very small sample) on which you base your hypothesis is unsound (but you know that).
Having said that, btw the times (lead into T1 were 18:29 and 18:56 (Lopes) = 2.4% slower (not 2.7% (a 12% difference).
Think a data trawl of 70.3 relative times for the swim (for the fastest 6, say) would offer a decent wedge of data worth comparing (same conditions). Go gather.
The front pack dynamic affects the bike times - again data fail.
Knibb and Long biked similarly (unencumbered by competition) at Oceanside, in 2:18 and 2:06: she cycle 10.5% slower.
Haug and West ran fastest in Ibiza (63 and 57): she ran 10.2% slower.
LCB 24:18 v Royle 22:38 in Ibiza: 7.3% slower.
I don’t know the answer to your base question though I’d observe that Lopes didn’t draft much and nor did the guys at the front of the swim so your ‘guess’ has an early wobble. Sounds like a great little project for someone like you that is interested. But base your findings on quality data please.
HTH
In today’s WCTS Cagliari race, the fastest women swam around 19:00 vs the fastest men around 18:30, so about 30 sec or only about 2.7% slower/////
Just stop right there, you are way over your skis on this one. First of all the women got to wear wetsuits, the men did not. And the swim for the women was nice and smooth, mens race was victory at sea…So if you want to handicap the races, add a minute for the wetsuits, and another half + for the conditions…There is your answer…
Two thoughts.
-
monty makes good points, so the comparison of one event should be ignored and abandoned as a way to consider this question.
-
The question is actually an interesting one. If we know that women, on average, are slower than men, in which of the three disciplines are they the closest in terms of percent difference? That would take a much larger data set to determine.
The data from cagliari is not the best to compare: the swim was really different (wetsuits, waves and current), the bike too (wet road)… . Better compare the splits from Yokohama, I think they are more accurate, however the bike will always be influenced by the race dynamics, not so much in the run. FYI, in yokohama, comparing the best splits by gender and the splits by the two winners the difference is: SWIM 4%-BIKE 11%-RUN 13%
I was curious and I checked the times of the winners in Cozumel 16, the difference between genders as per the above analysis was: SWIM 9%-BIKE 10%- RUN 11%… so, it seems the women´s swim has improved and it is the discipline where they are closer to men.
I have also compared the data of the last world championships of the single events: pool 1500m, bike TT 2022 (same distance for both genders), athletics 10000m, the difference between the winners are: SWIM 6%, BIKE 11%-RUN 12% which makes a lot of sense.
Better compare the splits from Yokohama, I think they are more accurate//
You’re as bad as Eric, do you guys not watch these races?? Yoko also had the women in wetsuits and the men without. Maybe you dont race, but I’m here to tell you that wetsuits make a world of difference in times in the swim, and certainly makes for larger packs that can generate faster speeds…Now the conditions were not as stark of a difference as today, but the rubber alone absolutely makes a huge difference…
If you haven’t watched the men’s race yet you should. Pretty good race and it was an amazing swim. I love challenging ocean swims and this was a fun one to watch, particularly because of the exit and re-entry.
This entire post was just stupid, both Cagliari and Yoko had the women in wetsuits with calmer swims and the men without. Cagliari was extremely rough with big waves for rhe men, calm as can be for the women. On the bike the women had dry and little wind. The men had wet roads with strong winds, both completely not comparable data.
This entire post was just stupid, both Cagliari and Yoko had the women in wetsuits with calmer swims and the men without. Cagliari was extremely rough with big waves for rhe men, calm as can be for the women. On the bike the women had dry and little wind. The men had wet roads with strong winds, both completely not comparable data.
I saw Yokohama but not the swim legs… my fault, but no need to be that “angry”. I will check a race where the men and women had exactly the same conditions. Yes, I have raced, with and without wetsuit and I know it makes a lot of difference, the same with the waves, the wind and the wet road. The best comparison could come from no drafting such as 70.3 or ironman distance then.
Haha everyone is getting so fired up by this
Another data set - 1500 fr 5k and 1 hour record
14:31 / 15:20
12:35 / 14:00
50.26 / 56.79
W : M
S - 94%
R - 89%
B - 88%
Men need to dip under 14 for 1500 to bring about equivalence. 16 - 16,15 minute W 1500 free is around the 5k women drop off. Shows how far ahead Ledecky is.
The chop was crazy on the swim for the men yesterday.
… swimming or riding twice as fast needs four times more power. With running it’s almost proportional. If everything were the same but the lads had higher power output across everything, the gaps would be largest on the run. Body mass, density and shape explain the rest of it.
The swim records will always be closer between men and women when compared to running because the extra body fat women have is negated by the buoyancy of water. Cycling 1 hour record obviously is affected significantly by aerodynamics when compared to running or swimming. The faster you go, your power output has to exponentially increase to maintain a linear increase in speed. This is why you can bike 21 mph at 200 watts but not 42 mph at 400 watts.
Haha everyone is getting so fired up by this
Another data set - 1500 free, 5k, and 1 hour record
14:31 / 15:20
12:35 / 14:00
50.26 / 56.79
W : M
S - 94%
R - 89%
B - 88%
Men need to dip under 14 for 1500 to bring about equivalence. 16 - 16,15 minute W 1500 free is around the 5k women drop off. Shows how far ahead Ledecky is.
Wave, thanks for gathering this data. I think this data supports my hypothesis although you have a point that Ledecky perhaps skews the data. I’m not going to spend hours researching this but my experience in triathlon has been that the women are generally closer to the men on the swim than on the B and R.
Haha everyone is getting so fired up by this
Another data set - 1500 fr 5k and 1 hour record
14:31 / 15:20
12:35 / 14:00
50.26 / 56.79
W : M
S - 94%
R - 89%
B - 88%
Men need to dip under 14 for 1500 to bring about equivalence. 16 - 16,15 minute W 1500 free is around the 5k women drop off. Shows how far ahead Ledecky is.
So based on this Erik is not that off in his overall observation that the gap in swimming is smaller
data set - 1500 fr 5k and 1 hour record
14:31 / 15:20
12:35 / 14:00
50.26 / 56.79
W : M
S - 94%
R - 89%
B - 88%
So based on this Erik is not that off in his overall observation that the gap in swimming is smallerErik hypotheses were:
“In the individual events typically the women are 10-ish % slower than the men in . I suppose that drafting is part of it but why the diff between the swim and bike??? I guess it must be that advantage of drafting on the swim exceeds that on the bike.”
@waverider has shared the actual %ages: 6%/12%/11% (SBR). Erik’s %ages from Cagliari were flawed (reasons above), the “typical % slower is 10%” assertion is false.
I suggest that neither of these are supportable by data and the reason that the %ages are different are included concisely in comments above (drafting is not the main factor).
Otherwise Erik is as you say, Paul “not far off”.
I think this data supports my hypothesis although you have a point that Ledecky perhaps skews the data. //
Of course she skews the data. When you have a once in a generation talent at the top like that, it throws off the %'s…A closer and more accurate look would be to average the top 3 or 5 best all time and then compare. That would help to get rid of, or at least not amplify such an outlier as Katie. I mean what if you compared to 2nd place in the all time instead of her, and did the same for the man?? Completely different conclusion is what…
I mean go back and compare the womens long jump record to Bob Beamon’s at the time, took many decades to close that outlier % of difference…And sport is rife with those types of examples, thus my suggestion if you really are interested in this ratio, then just pick some number under 10 and average them out and then compare…
I havent looked yet, but how does the 10k OW swim compare?? I mean they usually do the same course under similar conditions, what is the delta there in a non wetsuit swim??? No doubt lots of top races to look at now since it has become such a popular event…
159,30 / 148,33
12,58 / 14,36
90%
88%
Men and women 10k ow and 5k on the track from Tokyo. Obviously the 5k is a very tactical race and the 10k male ows was a fast time trial style swim from the winner. That is why some of these other combinations are harder to do rather than just straight records or best of all time top 10 performers average
Ledecky has all the top 10 times for the 1500 so you can’t really use the top 10 times, needs to be too 10 performers
My percentages are just the first two numbers too not the percentages
Also for the men and women 100 free 47/52 is 90% 144/152 is 93% and 340/355 is 93%
Eric is right , smaller delta in the swims. These are not all world records but just around the limit of the current times and what will be v fast in a few weeks at Paris
The only theory given above to why the delta is smaller I could see was increased fat as increased buoyancy. That’s a pretty basic theory. Need to take into account higher drag and density of water. But tbh I’ve got no idea why
Could it be that technique plays a bigger role in swimming and being male does not inherently give you a better technique.