I plan on doing a legs weight training session at lunch then a bike
workout 5 hours later. I want to know if this will nullify or greatly
diminish the returns of the bike workout. If it is possible to get
returns doing both workouts the same day then maybe I’m doing the
wrong workouts for that. I appreciate any feedback.
Here are the details of each workout.
Weights
I’m in a hypertrophy phase in weight lifting. I’m following Bomba’s
model of strength periodization. I know it would be better to do this
in the winter rather than summer but I bought the book too late . I
have little chicken legs and leg strength is a limiting factor for me.
Each exercise has a warmup set. I try to limit my rest to 1 min
between sets, doesn’t always happen though.
Squats 3x6 @ ~85% 1RM
Roman Deadlift 3x6 @ ~85% 1RM
Leg Press 4x8 @ ~80% 1RM
Split Squats 3x6 @ ~85% 1RM
Hamstring Curl Machine 3x8 @ 80% 1RM
Bike Workout
20 min warmup
Repeat 4x(15min @ 90% FTP, 5 min easy spin)
20 min cooldown
I posted this on some other forums too, I wanted to see what everyone thought.
Before everyone slams you on weight training, I want to go on record as supporting it. It may not make you a faster triathlete or time trialist, but it’s got a lot of other life-value…
Now I’ll just tell you about my experience. I am not currently doing hard weight workouts on my legs, but have done them along with cycling. My leg workouts were much harder than what you describe and I would definitely feel the effects at the beginning of my rides, much like when you run just off the bike.
Beyond the first 1-2 miles of the ride I didn’t notice any problems. My slow-twitch fibers were not depleted of glycogen by the anaerobic weight training of the fast-twitch fibers. I expect you will notice the same at least after a few weeks of acclimation.
If you do notice that it affects your ride, then that’s not necessarily bad. We’re not talking about a race here we are talking about training. In training it’s effort that matters more than performance.
Since your goal is hypertrophy, then nutrition is critical. You will be hitting those legs every (or most) days since you are cycling/triathloning so you need to avoid catabolism as much as you can. Do this by getting calories in you every 45 minutes on workouts that last longer than an hour. this could be simply a gu packet.
Have protein and carbs after every workout. Your overall calorie consumption needs to be a surplus.
The leg workout looks unbalanced and like you are putting in too much volume at the expense of quality lifts.
5x5 squats (add weight each session)
2x20 extensions (not to exhaustion)
2x20 adduction / 2 x 20 abduction (alternate / not to exhaustion)
2x20 calf raises (seated or standing / your call)
Before everyone slams you on weight training, I want to go on record as supporting it. It may not make you a faster triathlete or time trialist, but it’s got a lot of other life-value…
Jyeager:
I am neither for or against weight training and I do train with my own body weight but I was wondering what would be the other life-value you get out of weight training?
I have read and been advised numerous times (will find citation if I must later), that the optimal # of sets per exercise is 3… that is, the delta of performance gain (strength, not tri related) that comes from the 1st to the 2nd set is huge, 2nd to the 3rd almost equally big, then there is a dropoff from 3 to 4 sets per exercise, and very little performance gains to be had from doing more than 4 sets per exercise… I think this is predicated on the notion that if you can put out a 6th or 7th set then you arent really going hard enough. Either way, I think you’d be well served to up your exercise to 3 from 2 sets!
Other life value would be to look hot for the honeys at 4th of July :).
I’m not really sure if strength training will continue to help me personally but so far there has been significant FTP improvement.
Thanks for the response guys. I’ll see how I feel but I bet the 1st guy that posted is right, It will hurt a little bit at first but my slowtwitch wasn’t taxed enough and I should be good.
For the guy that wanted me to do higher reps here’s what I’m experimenting with Bompa’s strength periodization.
The phases that I’m following are:
Anatomical Adaption (Make sure you have full rage of motion, balance, little stabilizer muscles and a strong core)
Hypertrophy (develop a bigger cross section of muscle)
Maximum Strength (Try to gain was much strength as possible)
Conversion (convert the strength into muscular endurance)
So right now I’m in the Hypertrophy phase. I’ll be doing higher rep stuff when I get to conversion. I was planning on really high rep though. I’m trying to time the end of conversion with my next A race.
After this is done I’ll do it again if I’ve improved significantly.
I have read and been advised numerous times (will find citation if I must later), that the optimal # of sets per exercise is 3… that is, the delta of performance gain (strength, not tri related) that comes from the 1st to the 2nd set is huge, 2nd to the 3rd almost equally big, then there is a dropoff from 3 to 4 sets per exercise, and very little performance gains to be had from doing more than 4 sets per exercise
There’s actually very little data to support the conclusion that multiple sets are any better than just one.
Fair enough, I will say that I have undeniably had good progress with my 3 (sometimes 4) sets per exercise, apparently now with the caveat that this may not be optimal, I will have to do some reading tonight I guess.
The phases that I’m following are:
Anatomical Adaption (Make sure you have full rage of motion, balance, little stabilizer muscles and a strong core)
Hypertrophy (develop a bigger cross section of muscle)
Maximum Strength (Try to gain was much strength as possible)
Conversion (convert the strength into muscular endurance)
Hmmm…I wonder where the research is that supports that maximum strength can be converted to muscular endurance. Can you point me to it? Speaking of which, what exactly is muscular endurance anyway (from a physiological perspective)? Just curious.
There’s actually very little data to support the conclusion that multiple sets are any better than just one.
Mutliple time (7?) Mr. Olympia Dorian Yates would do one set to failure of each exercise. Granted, he would do several different exercises per muscle group, but one could argue that the benefits were to work muscles in back exercise #2 that were not worked in back exercise #1, for example.
… I was wondering what would be the other life-value you get out of weight training?
For me, here’s what comes to mind:
My legs were always proportionally small, now they look in proportion (cosmetic)
NEVER get sore doing new physical activities (water skiing, backpacking, rock climbing)
My ruptured disc at L4/L5 has become nearly non-symptomatic since beginning compound leg exercises (heavy squats and deads work upper glutes/lower back)
When carrying items up stairs it’s pleasantly comfortable (ie. groceries, furniture)
How come one person in this thread actually gave an answer to the question?
All you guys did was come back with a bunch of comments critical of his lifting workout. FYI, in case you haven’t noticed there are a million different lifting theories out there and while some work better than others depending on the person, situation, and expected results, as long as you stick to something and do it well you will see good results.
Anyway, if you’re following this workout then I assume you have a reason for doing so, so keep that going. That’s a pretty intense workout you listed, and depending on a bunch of other factors that nobody here knows but you, you’re either going to get some really good results or really crappy ones in relation to your bike performance.
You’re right about doing this type of strength work in the winter. That workout you listed will no doubt require some significant recovery time, 1 day minimum, 2 days possible depeding on your body. I have a very good feeling this will have a definite impact on your bike workout anytime that day. The muscles you hit are all going to be in serious recovery mode right when you start that bike workout and while you are not going to be tearing them all again you should see a serious reduction in power output and endurance. Will this hurt you? Probably not, but your muscles from that workout do need to recover sometime…so you should decide when that will be.
What are your goals? If it is ultimately to get faster on the bike for an endurance event you should focus on biking. That will give you better results than lifting. I say lift 2-3 times per week in a circuit session with lighter weights now to maintain a base than hit this tough stuff in the winter as you mentioned.
Well, you’ll get lots of people questioning your decision in general. But if we assume for the moment that your reasons for strength work are justified then yes, strength at work will hamper your evening bike work. No secret there.
But as a practical matter, what is the choice you have? It seems to me that doing strength work at lunch and riding in the evening is an efficient use of time and you make small trade off in terms of how optimum your bike ride is. To me that is a smart trade.
Now if you are the same guy from the wattage group then you should take a look at whether the workout you are doing is helping to fix your vmo and gluteus medius weakness. The exercises you list are not high on the list of exercises to help fix weakness in those muscles.
Just this year I have been lifting weights at lunch (full body - 2 sets @ 12 reps; various excercises) two days per week and riding hard those same evenings for app. 30 miles. I think it actually helps me feel better riding that night, and I have also had no IT band issues this year while increasing my run ~15 miles per week. Actually, I feel great!
I’ve ridden after lifting and while it’s harder I think you get a good benefit from it. Ask yourself these questions…
Does running after biking effect your running speed? Does it “feel” easier the next time you do a stand alone run (i.e. no bike before)?
I’d approach this with the same idea. It will most likely be a harder ride, but unless you’re legs are completely destroyed I’d imagine there will, at the very least, be some mental benefit of training with tired legs. Lift/Bike brick ideas aside, I’ve found that lifting weights for your legs (squats and lunges especially) produce gigantic benefits for time trialing. Just be sure to do plenty of running to avoid putting on tons of mass. Good luck!
If I recall correctly, Mr Yates actually did one or two “warm up” sets before his one, vomit-inducing max/weight/rep-to-failure hard core thing … meaning that he really followed a typical body building routine of 3 sets per exercise. Also, his “hardcore” training methods also resulted in an awful lot of tendon ruptures that eventually led to his retirement … but i suppose that’s a discussion that would lead quite far off-topic.
i wonder if those guys with 1000lb-squat strength would make a good pursuit cyclist … ? (assuming that they could lose 100lbs of cosmetic bulk from their upper body)
there’s no evidence that weight training for trained (endurance) cyclists has any benefits whatsoever, and some evidence that it’s detrimental. For endurance cycling it’s unlikely (for most people - there are some exceptions, e.g. frail old ladies) that people don’t have sufficient strength to be world class cyclists (actually, it’s likely that elite endurance cyclists are weaker than age, gender and mass matched controls).
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