Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing?

Triathlon Forum
41

What is the right price (of a swim erg) for you?

500$ for a “smart” one (with electronics, computer, connectivity etc.) and 250$ for a “dumb” one (no electronics); that is 20% more expensive than average rowers (you get a smart one for 400$ or even less), but yet reasonable

Honestly you can make a dumb swim ERG for about $15.

The only thing you don’t have at your house already are swim bands.

Something to think about:

With a VASA the tension is the same throughout the pull. Which seems like a good thing. But I am not so sure. With bands the tension increases through out the stroke (because the band is lengthening). It seems to me that the sweep is the most powerful part of the stroke because the lever angle is the best. This is exactly when the tension is highest if you are on a stable bench doing pull.

I’m not sure this is true. I think VASA ergs are like rowing ergs – flywheel with fan blades and air resistance – which means the resisting force is heavily dependent on how you execute your pull. The force at any given part of the pull depends on how much you are accelerating the flywheel and the air resistance at whatever flywheel rotation rate you’re at. Formally, you’d have:

force = moment of inertia * angular acceleration + air resistance
= I d\omega/dt + c \omega^2,

where I is the moment of inertia, \omega the angular velocity of the flywheel, and c is a drag coefficient which would depend on the damper setting and can be calculated by the machine based on how rapidly the wheel spins down in between pulls (how the Concept 2 self-calibrates).

Quick searching doesn’t show any “force curves” for the VASA like there are for the Concept 2 - so maybe something about it is proprietary or swimmers care less about having clean force curves (which I’d doubt…).

For in-water swimming force exertion on the pull is much messier since you are moving your arm at varying speed (with different parts of your arm having different speeds), as your body changes speed, through a non-confined mass of water. It’s the speed of your arm relative to the water that matters and presumably drag force varies as the square of that relative speed, but there is also some lift to consider… overall not easy!

42

With a VASA the tension is the same throughout the pull. Which seems like a good thing. But I am not so sure. With bands the tension increases through out the stroke (because the band is lengthening). It seems to me that the sweep is the most powerful part of the stroke because the lever angle is the best. This is exactly when the tension is highest if you are on a stable bench doing pull.

I’m not sure this is true. I think VASA ergs are like rowing ergs – flywheel with fan blades and air resistance – which means the resisting force is heavily dependent on how you execute your pull. The force at any given part of the pull depends on how much you are accelerating the flywheel and the air resistance at whatever flywheel rotation rate you’re at. Formally, you’d have:

force = moment of inertia * angular acceleration + air resistance
= I d\omega/dt + c \omega^2,

Regarding the VASA and your application of the angular displacement formula: I thought about this, and came to the opposite conclusion. The Fly wheel is most easily moved at the end of the stroke (when the fly wheel is rotating). But I haven’t taken DIFEQ in 22 years and haven’t practiced it at all so I could be 100% wrong about this. (and) I want to know, so kindly let me know if I am wrong.

One other thing: Gary Hall showed that swimmers travel the fastest at the start of the stroke (when drag is lowest) and thus it is pretty obvious that you would want the most resistance at the end of the stroke.

So, I think bands are a good $15 substitute!

43

While everyone is posting their DIY swim training equipment, I’m surprised no one has mentioned the Exer-Genie. My coach turned me onto these.

Granted, from what I’m told, these are pretty old school; however, I returned my overpriced vasa Ant+ erg a few months ago (and got hosed for $600 out of pocket due to shipping) and am infinitely happier with this. I scored one on eBay for $90, which is a FAR cry from what the vasas are going for. This provides a uniform tension throughout the stroke (like the Vasa but unlike stretch cords), if that makes a difference. To me, having used both, I would take this over the vasa, no questions asked.

While you can’t do both arms simultaneously (i.e., no fly/breast stroke), this thing is a beast for freestyle. It’s small, affordable, and really is working great for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdMZpEkSLTs&list=PLc9ZnhvFTS6crTinLJDtUUki-yQZTY_7E#action=share

44

With respect, I can think of six things off the top of my head that are more impactful than aerobic capacity in the events you listed. There’s a problem and I’ve been guilty of this in the past too because it’s how swimming thinks that it’s all about aerobic capacity. Aerobic capacity is one component of successful distance swimming, but it’s certainly not the most important one and it’s really a byproduct of training the brain. If you start to look at building mastery of the skill of racing fast at distance events in the pool, training can take on a completely different texture and emphasis. And I would also say again, with respect, that strength at those same distances especially for a masters age swimmer is more impactful than aerobic capacity.

With regards to training 7 days a week, from experience, I would tell you without hesitation that you could be a lot faster than you are right now if you would have taken at least one day off a week. Again, with respect.

Tim

45

With a VASA the tension is the same throughout the pull. Which seems like a good thing. But I am not so sure. With bands the tension increases through out the stroke (because the band is lengthening). It seems to me that the sweep is the most powerful part of the stroke because the lever angle is the best. This is exactly when the tension is highest if you are on a stable bench doing pull.

I’m not sure this is true. I think VASA ergs are like rowing ergs – flywheel with fan blades and air resistance – which means the resisting force is heavily dependent on how you execute your pull. The force at any given part of the pull depends on how much you are accelerating the flywheel and the air resistance at whatever flywheel rotation rate you’re at. Formally, you’d have:

force = moment of inertia * angular acceleration + air resistance
= I d\omega/dt + c \omega^2,

Regarding the VASA and your application of the angular displacement formula: I thought about this, and came to the opposite conclusion. The Fly wheel is most easily moved at the end of the stroke (when the fly wheel is rotating). But I haven’t taken DIFEQ in 22 years and haven’t practiced it at all so I could be 100% wrong about this. (and) I want to know, so kindly let me know if I am wrong.

One other thing: Gary Hall showed that swimmers travel the fastest at the start of the stroke (when drag is lowest) and thus it is pretty obvious that you would want the most resistance at the end of the stroke.

So, I think bands are a good $15 substitute!

I think you’re right that the VASA should have low resistance towards the end of the stroke once you are no longer accelerating the flywheel (as you’re then no longer exerting force to accelerate the flywheel). But the real swim stroke is also like this – once your pull slows, your thrust force also weakens and your backwards force application drops to zero as you pull your arm out of the water and start the recovery phase. I am definitely a proponent of cords and they will train the end of your pull to be stronger, but the switch from end of pull to recovery feels weird because you drop from maximal backwards force exertion to zero vary quickly and you’re training the back half of your pull harder than the front half.

46

Another reason I like the ski machine pulley. The tension is the same through out the pull. It’s also infinite amount of resistance. I can set it much higher than actually swimming, and build strength. I should also mention that I’m using the old ski machine completely unmodified. I’m sure there are folks here, with much more ingenuity that me, that could improve on the idea. I’m using it an hour every other day, and get off it feeling just as spent as an hour in the pool.

47

While everyone is posting their DIY swim training equipment, I’m surprised no one has mentioned the Exer-Genie. My coach turned me onto these.

Granted, from what I’m told, these are pretty old school; however, I returned my overpriced vasa Ant+ erg a few months ago (and got hosed for $600 out of pocket due to shipping) and am infinitely happier with this. I scored one on eBay for $90, which is a FAR cry from what the vasas are going for. This provides a uniform tension throughout the stroke (like the Vasa but unlike stretch cords), if that makes a difference. To me, having used both, I would take this over the vasa, no questions asked.

While you can’t do both arms simultaneously (i.e., no fly/breast stroke), this thing is a beast for freestyle. It’s small, affordable, and really is working great for me.

https://www.youtube.com/...QZTY_7E#action=share

This looks fascinating – seems to be tunable frictional resistance of a cord passing over a smooth metal surface? So it could actually be constant resisting force as compared to flywheel systems. My main concern would be how such a small device dissipates enough heat if you’re putting out a lot of power… but maybe the rope heats up and can radiate or conduct heat to the air when it passes out of the metal unit.

48

With respect, I can think of six things off the top of my head that are more impactful than aerobic capacity in the events you listed. There’s a problem and I’ve been guilty of this in the past too because it’s how swimming thinks that it’s all about aerobic capacity. Aerobic capacity is one component of successful distance swimming, but it’s certainly not the most important one and it’s really a byproduct of training the brain. If you start to look at building mastery of the skill of racing fast at distance events in the pool, training can take on a completely different texture and emphasis. And I would also say again, with respect, that strength at those same distances especially for a masters age swimmer is more impactful than aerobic capacity.

With regards to training 7 days a week, from experience, I would tell you without hesitation that you could be a lot faster than you are right now if you would have taken at least one day off a week. Again, with respect.

Tim

I’ll address the 7 days per week first. Just to be clear I am not in this sport to get faster as the primary reason I do sport. I do sport because I enjoy it every day. I am OK if I not as fast, but the trade off is worth it. Many age groupers make that trade off. I have other parts of my life where I have maximize performance all the time, so its just not enjoyable to treat sport in the same context. It may be different if sport is all I did. My professional life, requires way more performance focus continuously with much more on the line for a lot of people if I don’t perform. So by the time sport rolls around its a different focus.

I can see a point when I am retired where what you said will make even more sense, because I won’t have my professional life to check how much training I can do!

On you first set of points, we are in agreement 100%. My point is during dryland, I can work my fast twitch with weights, and use other machines for slow twitch and some chords gets me to some swim specific motions. I’ll use the pool for technical in general (no pool now), and I’m not in a rush to replicate pool motions for hours on end trying emulate them dryland. If my upper body is aerobically fit and fit strength wise, I’ll resume pool specific motions back in the water. Does that make sense?

49

With respect, I can think of six things off the top of my head that are more impactful than aerobic capacity in the events you listed. There’s a problem and I’ve been guilty of this in the past too because it’s how swimming thinks that it’s all about aerobic capacity. Aerobic capacity is one component of successful distance swimming, but it’s certainly not the most important one and it’s really a byproduct of training the brain. If you start to look at building mastery of the skill of racing fast at distance events in the pool, training can take on a completely different texture and emphasis. And I would also say again, with respect, that strength at those same distances especially for a masters age swimmer is more impactful than aerobic capacity.

With regards to training 7 days a week, from experience, I would tell you without hesitation that you could be a lot faster than you are right now if you would have taken at least one day off a week. Again, with respect.

Tim

Tim - Has your pool reopened yet??? If not, when do you think you will??? Just curious, thanks!!!

50

No. Neither pool we swim out of has opened. The community pool said they would update mid May on opening up. The high school pool will probably be longer before it opens.

Hope you are doing well.

Tim

51

No. Neither pool we swim out of has opened. The community pool said they would update mid May on opening up. The high school pool will probably be longer before it opens. Hope you are doing well.

Tim

I see, thanks for your update. I am doing just fine thanks. I sure hope the pools here in Knoxville open soon but I am taking this opportunity to do some additional strength training. I think you’re abso right on aerobic fitness being low on the list of requirements for fast distance swimming, as you gotta have that basic strength first. I’m doing lots of pull-ups, push-ups, dips, and sit-ups, 3 days per week. I found a set of pull-up bars at our local high school Navy Jr ROTC unit’s compound, which are very convenient for me to use. :slight_smile:

52

No. Neither pool we swim out of has opened. The community pool said they would update mid May on opening up. The high school pool will probably be longer before it opens.

Hope you are doing well.

Tim

Do you forsee a lag on pools opening up in Texas after the state opens and when pools open, will there be a zillion layers of guidelines/regulations/limitations or will it be back to business as usual at pools. We are having this discussion at Masters Swimming Ontario and expecting Masters clubs will be quite limited initially. We need all the limitations broken through by kids programs and seniors aquafit programs, if masters are going to be able to swim 6 per lane etc. We can’t physically distance and run masters swims, so its going to need to be waived for kids and seniors at some point to allow for masters to slide through under the same clauses.

53

After 56 days since swimming pools lock down, we were cleared for open water swimming; today I swam 1,5 miles at a pace 10-12 seconds per 100m slower than my usual. In the past 8 week I did a mix of strength training with stretch cords, chin up bar, dumb bells and body weight, 3 times a week; I think it helped keeping me afloat

54

There’s at least a two week lag from the opening which was May 1 and the earliest the pools would open - mid-May. We’ll see what it looks like in a couple weeks. Personally, I think Texas probably opened too soon. The state ranks near the bottom in terms of testing, but is the 2nd most populous state in the US.

I put together some ideas before the initial shut down on how to run workouts. We usually swim in a 6 lane 25 yard outdoor pool. The plan was two people per lane, one person on each end of the pool in each lane and run the workout from both ends. It limits the workouts to 12 people but it solves a lot of the social distancing concerns. USA Swimming sent out a guide the other day on how to run workouts and it was similar.

But anyway you look at it we are in uncharted waters and whatever we do we should keep in mind to err on the side of the health and safety of our athletes.

Tim

55

After 56 days since swimming pools lock down, we were cleared for open water swimming; today I swam 1,5 miles at a pace 10-12 seconds per 100m slower than my usual. In the past 8 week I did a mix of strength training with stretch cords, chin up bar, dumb bells and body weight, 3 times a week; I think it helped keeping me afloat

Ya, no doubt the dry-land workouts help. If our pools don’t open by 1 June, I’ll prob jump in and swim OW until the pools reopen.

56

For using the old bike trainer…anyone have better photos or info for the return spring or whatever for using one as a rower?

I have an old Fluid 2 and trainer wheel sitting around.

If there’s a link to a topic or some photos, let me know. I’d be down to MacGyver something up for fun.

Shoot, with that you could even put a wheel speed sensor on it and go Zwifting!

57

After 56 days since swimming pools lock down, we were cleared for open water swimming; today I swam 1,5 miles at a pace 10-12 seconds per 100m slower than my usual. In the past 8 week I did a mix of strength training with stretch cords, chin up bar, dumb bells and body weight, 3 times a week; I think it helped keeping me afloat

I’ve been Vasa only for 8 weeks. I’m eager to see what kind of progress I’ve made, if any. I’ve certainly gotten used to the convenience of hitting the Vasa in the basement…

While I can see you were swimming a slightly slower pace than usual, once you get your sea legs back do you feel like you made any progress being out of the water, or more like just maintained?

58

After 56 days since swimming pools lock down, we were cleared for open water swimming; today I swam 1,5 miles at a pace 10-12 seconds per 100m slower than my usual. In the past 8 week I did a mix of strength training with stretch cords, chin up bar, dumb bells and body weight, 3 times a week; I think it helped keeping me afloat

I’ve been Vasa only for 8 weeks. I’m eager to see what kind of progress I’ve made, if any. I’ve certainly gotten used to the convenience of hitting the Vasa in the basement…

While I can see you were swimming a slightly slower pace than usual, once you get your sea legs back do you feel like you made any progress being out of the water, or more like just maintained?.

I’ll jump in here, having used my Vasa a lot through various situations.

For me, the Vasa alone (no pool for like 2 months) does NOT get me faster in the water, meaning getting me to hit faster pool paces than I ever have. Sorry, I said it. So forget about jumping into the pool and throwing down some huge PRs. Not gonna happen.

It’s just reality that the Vasa mimics the power phase of the stroke, but obviously doesn’t help with body position, hydrodynamics, breathing, timing, etc. all of which are crucial skills to swim faster. You obviously cannot learn to swim if you don’t know how to and just use a Vasa crazy hard for a year. You will still nearly drown. Similarly, all that muscular endurance in the pull you develop on the Vasa will be hidden if you do not have the technique, stroke timing, or drag reduction to let it express itself.

Now the upside - the Vasa really does work for what it does. It allows you to maintain and even improve the power phase of your pull, which is your single biggest determinant of speed once you’re past raw beginner level. So if you’ve got all that power, it’s just a matter of getting the rest of the swim pieces to catch up. For a half-decent tri swimmer, that may take only a few pool swims, or only a matter of weeks. I actually strongly suspect that the better swimmer you are, the more effective the Vasa will be, as you will have already developed the other limiters (which come back a lot faster than gaining more pull power.)

And if you were a pretty decent tri swimmer prior to the lockdown, I’d expect to lose very little if you’ve been good about using the Vasa. I’ve taken 2 months completely out of water on Vasa due to local pool shutdowns - the first goaround without Vasa I lost so much that it took nearly 4 months to even get back to that level. I bought the Vasa shortly after that and I’ve lost very little even after 2 months of nothing but Vasa.

In my experience, best-use case is doing the right mix of pool swimming + Vasa erg, where the erg helps you amp up that crucial power phase of the stroke, and the pool gives you enough to get the rest of the stroke to match it. I absolutely swim muy fastest and best when my combined Vasa+pool swimming is on point - I’ve tried going all pool but it doesn’t quite match for me, likely because the time costs of going to the pool are so huge that I can get 2x the time on the Vasa in comparison. Volume counts!

Let us know how it goes, though!

59

One thing you could add for someone like you (or at a higher caliber, Sam Gyde), is that once you have basic body position down and timing for breathing, then the Erg will help the propulsion phase and most so in wetsuit legal races.

I would use this approach for years, XC skiing like crazy in the winter and having very competitive swims 4-6 weeks later at spring races down south. I had many years where I did not swim at all. Just skied and started swimming only 4-6 weeks out.

The wetsuit is a great equalizer if you have basic body position, good cardio, timing of breathing and stong pull. The Vasa erg will take care of that strong pull and make you competitive enough in a time limited way in wetsuit legal events.

60

Totally agree. The wetsuit assists which remove a lot of the limiters of body buoyancy and leg position, make OWS an even more pull-dependent activity so it more heavily rewards people with stronger pulls even if the rest isn’t as strong.

I was actually the reverse of that pre-Vasa - good body position, good timing, but couldn’t pull hard. Not enough swim volume for me without the erg. Tellingly, I’d go no faster with a PB or wetsuit in the pool (drove me nuts - I’d get dropped in my masters lane the moment the PBs came out so I’d go without!) and paddles also gave no speed advantage.

Since getting the erg though, I’ve flip flopped. Now my arm muscular endurance is not limiting, and I am a lot faster with paddles (and I can use paddles the whole workout, hard), and also faster with PB/wetsuit. It was weird for me to experience the flip flop - I checked my times in the pool with the toys and was like ?WTF? since it was totally backwards from what I was used to.