Why Speedwork is Overrated

Triathlon Forum
1

My title is a little inflamatory, addmitedly. I wanted something that would grab your attention. Before I get the angry responses, I am not advocating LSD only training. I think the “higher intensity” IS important. What I am talking about here is what I call “speed” training, or what many of you might know from Daniels’ Formula as “rep training.”

Anyway, I have copied my response to another thread below (enjoy):

I don’t focus on that too much on ST as reps are, IMO, overrated for the type of racing that we do here. They are most beneficial for 5K and shorter races (a sprint tri requires 10K speed, not 5K speed). I once looked through all the sources I have and combined it with my personal experience and a couple college programs that I am aware of and put together a formula…that apparently only I can understand ; ^ ) BUT, its still a good resource for me to use.

Anyway, lets consider a 10 mile standalone race (or a tri that ends with a 5 mile run). In the 12 weeks leading up to the race (I call this the racing phase) my table shows 0.45% of your total training should be “speed” or rep training. For someone running 30 miles a week, that’s about 200 meters a week.

Now this can be handled many different ways. Jack Daniels would package that into the first 3 weeks. Doing the quick math, thats 800 meters a week for three weeks, or 3 sessions of 4x200 meters. He might even have you do that as a mix workout where its mixed in with another workout.

Pete Pfitzinger would instead have you do one workout session about every 3 weeks of 8x100m.

IMO, this volume of speed is so small and its so insignificant that I just recommend doing 3-4 50 meter striders at the end of 2 or 3 of your short runs every week.

Now one might ask, why does Daniels seem to focus so much on it. The feeling that I get from the running community (and my own personal opinion) is that Jack’s target audience is a little higher level than most triathletes and most road racers. Take a mid level college runner training for a 10K. He’ll be running 65 miles a week and finishing the 10K in the mid to low 30s, or a pace in the low 5min/mile range. This requires a little more neuro muscular response than racing at 8 minutes a mile. These guys will have to make a move to breakaway or catch someone in the last lap, moving to a quick kick at the finish. Going back to my formula, they’ll want 1% of their mileage to be “speed work.” 1% of 65 is 1,000m a week…quite a bit more than .45% of 30. And…as you might guess, when I was in college, we did about 1,000m a week of speed during XC season.

I like to think of speed work like hitting the heavy bag for a boxer. You are training your foot to “punch” the ground and recoil as fast as possible. A mile race for an elite guy is like a lightweight boxer who needs to unleash a flurry of punches on his opponent. A 4:00 marathon is like a wrestling match (no punching). A 10K you might think of like kick boxing or MMA. You will need to throw punches, but you’ve got to work on other aspects of your fighting as well and you have a limited amount of training time. so you can only do so much punching.

I always remind people that every minute of running you do in one training zone might be several minutes of training that you are not doing in a slower training zone.

2

A large percentage of the people who come to my running club join in order to train for longer races, frequently marathons. The first thing they think they need to do once they start running is come to track and run much, much faster than they’ll ever be running in that target marathon. Even before they’re doing 30 miles per week.

When I can, I try to suggest that they go back out there, get their weekly mileage up first before thinking about speed. Do a couple of weekly unstructured tempos. Get comfortable with the mileage and some lower-intensity speed. Then come back to track and run with us. For those of us doing the work, most of the emphasis is on the THRESHOLD paced end of Daniels intensity levels. Cruise Intervals, I think Daniels calls them. Really what we’re doing is just structured tempo runs but it’s tough to get people to do those on their own.

3

So now I have a plausible excuse to stay off the track. Thanks Barry :slight_smile:

4

I’ll leave it to others to discuss running and biking but, speed work a/k/a intervals are very important to the development of swimming speed for triathletes. Triathletes need to increase swim specific strength and edurance so they can execute and hold proper technique over time and thus swim faster over time. Intervals are important in the pool since swimming slow for a long time and swimming fast for a short time are often fundementally different activites for novice swimmers. Thus, novice swimmers really can’t train long and slow. They are in most cases actually doing a different stroke on long slow swims than they are on fast short ones. And, its the stroke you are doing on teh short fast ones which is the one you need to train yourself to be able to do longer if you want to go faster.

Presumably, in cycling and running, one does intervals to increase max power output. In swimming, that is true too but for novice swimmers, intervals also develope the strentgh endurance and skills necessary to actually be able to swim properly. That part of the equation is not usually part of running and cycling.

Whatever you want to say about long distance running and cycling, you need to do intervals in the pool if you want to get faster.

5

racing at 8 minutes a mile.
That sounds just wrong.

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Well, 8s will get you a 3:30 marathon, which usually puts you in the top 30%. Should I say, “running in a race event @ 8min a mile” instead of “racing?” ; ^ )

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I’ve written stuff before about comparing swimming to running, and this is where a lot of people making the transition get messed up. Swimming can be very interval intensive because its low impact and, like you said, swimming slow teaches you the wrong technique. Running, OTOH, you get beat up really quickly if you do too much interval training.

8

For structured swim intervals, would you say it’s better to do sets that are at high effort (e.g. steady or descending at around 90% of max) with relatively short breaks, or max efforts with relatively long breaks? I usually do the former because I hate taking long breaks with limited time in the pool. For instance, I can hold my pace for 10x100 at 90% effort on 10s rest. But to do 10x100 at max effort, I would need around 30-40s rest in between to hold my pace.

9

Barry,
I could not agree more. I was a mediocre college runner on low miles because my coach stressed workouts rather than volume. I ran maybe 30-35 miles a week. Directly after my only season in '95 I ran a PR 15:56 5K. It took me ten years before I finally was convinced I was going about it the wrong way. Four years after that I won a duathlon with 16:20 and 17 min 5K run splits after 140 hours running in the four previous months. And no speed work.
For the average triathlete, endurance is the limiter, not speed.
Chad

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I usually do the former because I hate taking long breaks with limited time in the pool.

That’s a great point. One always needs to remember that there is no triathlete who even comes close to training like a real swimmer simply because of time constraints so every triathlete swim workout is a compromise . (By way of example of what full time swimmers do, school hasn’t started yet so my kids high school team is currently doing 22 hours a week in the pool - 2 hours per day x 2 plus one 2 hour workout on Saturday. They’ll do this for 4 weeks then drop back to 14-16 hours once school starts - obviously, they have time for everything.)

If you have to choose, I’d lean towards doing the 90% stuff and not much all out stuff.

Actually, I think this hits on the point being made in the orginal post. Its not that speed work is bad, its that some don’t see it as worth the time compromise it requires. I’m not sure I totally agree with that postition but it is a valid point of discussion, particularlly for triathletes. Becasue of time constraints that are inevitable in triathlon training, everything you do means there is something else you are not doing. One needs to choose wisely.

11

But that doesn’t account for the fact that you gain more endurance by use of speed workouts. This is well documented. Depending on who we are talking about people might also have jobs and families and need the most out of their time which is and will always be speed work.

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I can’t believe that I’m going to mildly disagree with BarryP, but here goes… I think that the overall tendency with “average” triathletes is to do very little speedwork (in all three disciplines). This is especially a mistake for the time-constrained triathlete who simply cannot put in the mileage that a dedicated runner can (low mileage + less speedwork = slow runner). Granted, fast running beats a person up more than biking or swimming. The solution is … HILLS. It increases running muscular strength, pushes the heartrate up, reduces impact injuries, etc. Walk the downhills if necessary. Do less speedwork, but replace it with hillwork.

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I guess what I keep coming back to is the question “Whats the best training given X hours of running” Thats really what most triathletes and runners want to know. X for most triathletes is pretty low.

I kinda infer that you think for a given X, triathletes should train differently than runners. I’m not so sure I agree with that. A few minor tweaks may be necessary, but i don’t see wholesale changes.

Styrrell

14

I guess what I keep coming back to is the question “Whats the best training given X hours of running” Thats really what most triathletes and runners want to know. X for most triathletes is pretty low.

I kinda infer that you think for a given X, triathletes should train differently than runners. I’m not so sure I agree with that. A few minor tweaks may be necessary, but i don’t see wholesale changes.

Styrrell

I think the underlying point is that triathletes often seek to scale down the training methods of single-sport athletes in the interest of time. The problem is that single-sport athletes do various work in proportions because said proportions provide the greatest overall benefit. When you scale down the schedule of a 20 hr/wk runner to a 5 hr/wk triathlete, the volume of the shorter workouts essentially falls off the map.

IMO, the problem with a “best training for X hours” approach is that there are just too many variables from athlete to athlete. I’m thinking personal abilities, training phase, experience, race goals, injuries, etc. That’s not to say that if someone comes up with a formula for this, I won’t take a peek …

15

So what do you tell the person who is running 7 minute miles and wants to get down to the 6 min/mile or faster range.

I know your run frequency ideas and will be using those…but my ultimate goal is to get faster. at some point in time my legs need to learn how to turn over faster…right? 50m striders is really enough for that?

16

I understand and agree with your point, but most people including Barry seem to be saying something different. I think most people agree that taking a 20 hr/week plan and scaling it down isn’t optimum, Barry seems to be saying that a 6 hour/week Triathlete should train in a fundamentally different way than a 6 hour/week runner.

If not then you were able to say in 3 lines what took him quite a few more words to convey ;-).

I’m not attacking Barry just trying to under stand, mainly because my own running got decidedly better when I added more speedwork a la Daniels, even when continuing to cross train. Believe me it would be a lot easier to follow Barry’s plan.

Styrrell

17

So what do you tell the person who is running 7 minute miles and wants to get down to the 6 min/mile or faster range.

I know your run frequency ideas and will be using those…but my ultimate goal is to get faster. at some point in time my legs need to learn how to turn over faster…right? 50m striders is really enough for that?

I don’t want to speak for the awesome BarryP, but I think his plan can definitely apply to your situation. Work on the aerobic engine and run-specific strength through comfortable miles, then possibly get your tempo work in race situations (like a standalone 5k or 10k). Maybe someone else can speak to this, but it seems like the physiological mechanisms between a 7 and 6 minute mile are very similar. I doubt ‘speed’ is your limiter and it is probably not an effective plan to focus on it much (unlike the milers that Barry describes above).

In addition, the track is an evil harbinger of pain and suffering. The thought of repeat 400s hurts my soul!

18

Barry, every time you come to ST and say the same things I’ve always been saying I realize just how smart you really are! :wink:

Except people KNOW you are smart, and they don’t know that about me.

tongue-in-cheek aside I really appreciate your ST input.

19

“Long slow distance makes long slow runners.”
Jim Bush, coach at UCLA

i disagree but you need to make the speedwork relevent to your distance. if Im training for a marathon im not going to go out and bust out 65-70 second 400’s. that is a waste. but if I plan on running a 7 min pace marathon it wouldnt be a bad idea to do 6:45-6:30 min mile repeats. I think one of the main points of speedwork is to accent the race you are preparing for and have the muscles recognize the pace and effort. If you know you can easily bust out 6 or 8 one mile repeats at 6:30 pace, for danm sure you know you can bust out a 15mile+ race @ 7 min pace (assuming you use realistic rest in between). If I went out and ran 8 min pace every day, i doubht ill be able to run a 7min mile in a distance race. Speedwork needs to be in there right next to your tempo runs.

Not to mention speedwork is just plain ol fun!!!

20

Well, in deciphering the various methods and suggestions, I am officially confused. I would really like to adhere to a nice, structured program for the sake of consistency. Strange, because my run training the past two years has been relatively successful, and there was absolutely no logic behind it. I was like Forrest Gump. I just started running. The first mile or two would dictate the pace, then I’d run until I was physically or mentally ready to stop. This put most of my runs in the 50-70 minute range, but some days would be longer and a few days would be shorter.