is it hard to make the tube shapes that cervelo does on their S1 and P1 out of steel?
could you get even narrower and thinner with steel, and drop the cost at the same time?
DOn’t know about keeping the cost down but…
http://www.englishcycles.com/
is it hard to make the tube shapes that cervelo does on their S1 and P1 out of steel?
could you get even narrower and thinner with steel, and drop the cost at the same time?
Aero shapes should be very easy to duplicate. Litespeed made the Blade out of Titanium so I would imagine that doing it out of steel would be easier. I would worry about rust on a tri bike because of the swim aspect of triathlon. I would also bet that you could get close in weight but the metal would ding very very easy.
It would be arguably easier to shape the tubes out of steel vs ti or aluminum. They would be much heavier however. You couldn’t go muuch thinner than normal round tubes without getting severe oilcanning.
For steel aero frames Hooker is still pretty much state of the art, but heavy and flexy.
Styrrell
the old tange steel aero tubes were very erm ‘stealth’
.
For steel aero frames Hooker is still pretty much state of the art, but heavy and flexy.
The Hooker was aluminum, reasonably light, and reasonably stiff.
Hubba hubba…(in best Jonny Bravo voice)…Hey Baby.
Those frames are competely beautiful!
Oops, dont know why but I could’ve swore it was steel. I never rode one but spoke to a few who did and while everyone said it was fast, most reported quite a bit of flex. I know you had one was it stiff just stiff enough for TT or couldn’t you tell a difference between it and most modern TT frames?
Styrrell
Every triathlete thinks they need a bike that will keep up with them during their 350 watt efforts over 112 miles. Steel would be too flexy and heavy for that.
I think you would break alot of tubes trying it!
graeme obree had some success with shaping tubes into aerofoils but had a lot of tubes fail while trying to manipulate them into an aero shape its the sharp trailing edge that causes the problem! the solution was to braze on an extra v section to the tube but it adds a lot of weight!
M@TTY
(pink)steel is flexy, interesting.(end pink)
Every triathlete thinks they need a bike that will keep up with them during their 350 watt efforts over 112 miles. Steel would be too flexy and heavy for that.
Obree wasn’t exactly known for using state of the art metal working techniques. Either making tubes by drawing into the final shape or welding them up from flat sheet would work fine. Its still likely that a steel frame with aero properties equal to the best carbon frames would be heavier or more flexible.
Styrrell
DOn’t know about keeping the cost down but…
http://www.englishcycles.com/
MY GAWD! My taint hurts just looking at that thing …
But I still find it incredibly sexy …
I know you had one was it stiff just stiff enough for TT or couldn’t you tell a difference between it and most modern TT frames?
I would say that it was as stiff as most road frames of the era.
It’s the builder’s personal bike and he explains elsewhere on the site that he has monkey arms. Regardless of whether I could ride it I still want it.
metal noobish by snobs standards, why would we want another material thats not carbon?
still rockin’ the dual.
I know you had one was it stiff just stiff enough for TT or couldn’t you tell a difference between it and most modern TT frames?
I would say that it was as stiff as most road frames of the era.
If you search for the patents (I have a pdf on a drive SOMEWHERE) from the hooker, it gained it’s rigidity by having an interal “X” in the tube… so while they were very, VERY narrow, they were not noodles, even by today’s standards…
g
(oh, and I have had bot the tt and the road versions…)
Hubba hubba…(in best Jonny Bravo voice)…Hey Baby.
Those frames are competely beautiful!
x2!
Was the Hooker Elite steel?
is it hard to make the tube shapes that cervelo does on their S1 and P1 out of steel?
could you get even narrower and thinner with steel, and drop the cost at the same time?
The limitations of the material would yeild a really heavy frame. Making tubes ~25mm wide or 27mm x 80mm from steel would require very thick sections to make them stiff enough. Blending the shapes at tube junctions are what takes the fast frames like the hooker and P2k to the very fast, like the P4. I suspect that if Cervelo could make the P1 or S1 faster from steel, they would.
As to development of a new frame from steel, the performance trade off would never offset the development.
While Litespeed made aero-looking tubes, I’d be suprised if they were optimized for aerodynamics, especially at the aforementioned junctions.
One look at the bloated and tapered downtube/seat tube junction of the Shiv should indicate to why steel would be impossible.
We’re making carbon frames now with 4 plies in the low stress areas. That kind of wall thickness manipulation cannot be done in steel. You can’t butt a steel tube so that it is 0.6mm in the thin, low-load sections and 4mm in the high stress areas.
No doubt steel has it’s place; but largely it is under those with a nostalgic interest, not one of optimized performance. Bikes are tools for most in the performance market.