Those 2 x 20 min intervals on the bike at threshold pace or close to it get a lot of love here and elsewhere. I actually hate doing them because it’s so painful after a few minutes.
Was curious though why such an approach hasn’t been mentioned for running. I know that a lot of folks newer to running or with more fragile bodies might get injured with 2 x 20’ at faster than HM pace, but I can definitely do that, day in and day out without injury. (Not that I’d enjoy it anymore on the run than the bike.)
Maybe Daniels cruise intervals are close enough and given the weight bearing nature, you get a short recovery every mile, which probably reduces the overall recovery penalty.
Ok, it does look like folks are in fact doing this for running. Curious as to why it’s sold so hard as one of the “core” workouts for cycling by a lot of cycling folks, whereas in running it’s more of a ‘speed’ workout surrounding a regimen of mostly easier runs. Again, I would be able to run 2 x 20s 7 days per week without injury (whether I’d want to is a different story!)
Those 2 x 20 min intervals on the bike at threshold pace or close to it get a lot of love here and elsewhere. I actually hate doing them because it’s so painful after a few minutes.
So painful after a couple minutes? How are you pacing these things? Generally these are done at threshold or FTP which is what you should be able to hold for one hour so why is it so bad for you after a couple minutes?
On another note what would you rather do on the bike, just ride around?
If you go over to the Let’s Run forum and find their weekly road race training thread, you will find that very few people do more than 2, or even more rarely 3, workouts per week. Yet, they are running anywhere from 40 -105 miles per week.
Throwing in two or three 2 x 20 minute tempo set workouts per month is a core part of a good run training plan.
Ok, it does look like folks are in fact doing this for running. Curious as to why it’s sold so hard as one of the “core” workouts for cycling by a lot of cycling folks, whereas in running it’s more of a ‘speed’ workout surrounding a regimen of mostly easier runs. Again, I would be able to run 2 x 20s 7 days per week without injury (whether I’d want to is a different story!)
Yes, shouldn’t there be a correlation between the recommendations for the basic training run types (e.g., weekly speedwork, tempo, and long runs as recommended by the Runner’s World SmartCoach) and the recommendations for the cycling training types?
If there was such a correlation, I would expect cycling coaches to recommend something like a weekly series consisting of a VO2 max workout, a threshold workout (e.g., 2x20), and a long ride. It does seem like most of the cycling recommendations on this forum have heavily focused on the threshold workouts. I’m not saying those recommendations are wrong, but I’ve also been curious about why there seems to be a difference.
theres a well known sport scientist whose paper suggested that you can get most out of your runnning by doing 2 sessions per week one was the 2 x 20 min at threshold the other was 5 x 3 min at VO2 max speed. She is a french lady called Billat, the 5 x 3min is very tough if done correctly she subsequently went on to modify the workout to do 30 sec on 30 sec off at the same speed. This has been out there for some time
Those 2 x 20 min intervals on the bike at threshold pace or close to it get a lot of love here and elsewhere. I actually hate doing them because it’s so painful after a few minutes.
So painful after a couple minutes? How are you pacing these things? Generally these are done at threshold or FTP which is what you should be able to hold for one hour so why is it so bad for you after a couple minutes?
On another note what would you rather do on the bike, just ride around?
I’m just being honest when I say that running at my threshold hurts like heck. And I don’t think I’m a wimp at all - I’m pretty well known as that guy who adds sets to the end of the group track workout to make it harder.
Maybe I need to recalibrate my threshold, but I used my standalone half marathon time (1:30) performed a week after my HIM in Sep as my benchmark approximation of my threshold. So my threshold is probably even faster than that 6:55-7:00ish pace, but I’m using that as close to my running threshold.
At least for now, running 6:55/mile hurts after about 5 minutes. It’s not gutbusting, but it’s certainly unpleasant enough to make me want to stop, immediately. I was actually surprised that I could hold it for 13 entire miles on that race day, but I was also shocked the week before when I ran 7:18s for the end of my HIM.
A big part of it may be that I’ve done zero 400-800 meter speedy intervals in the past 4 months. I just did my first set with the local triclub this past week and my hamstrings are still hurting from that workout, although my paces didn’t suffer at all. I’m suspecting that if I keep up the fast stuff, those threshold efforts will at least feel easier. Hopefully, at least.
To put in perspective, the fastest runs I did for 1200-longer intervals during my 4 month HIM build were done at about 6:50/mile, and I thought they hurt pretty bad - I honestly thought 6:50 was my VO2 pace for triathlon training. Of course, with all that cycling on top, it made it feel harder - I’m still trying to figure out what the ideal “T” pace is.
Curious as to why it’s sold so hard as one of the “core” workouts for cycling by a lot of cycling folks, whereas in running it’s more of a ‘speed’ workout surrounding a regimen of mostly easier runs.
As you can see, it is a core workout for serious runners and those that know what they are doing with run training. Not sure why but faster paced running like this or “speed” work as you called it, has been demonized by so many that, hardly practiced by anyone. why do it, because just like in cycling that 20 minutes of effort, if you dose it properly, pushes many of the right physiological buttons to make you faster, and more efficient - if that’s what you want to do!
2 X 20 might be a bit much for folks, but a weekly session of warm up for 5 - 10, then hit it somewhere between 5k and 10K race pace and hold there for 20 minutes, should have you surfing along your lactate threshold nicely - then warm down, for 5 minutes and you are done. The alternative is make a 5K running race a regular part of your training.
I used 2x20min as my main hard work set for a marathon build. Not sure if I did it “correctly” but I was completing the set a small bit slower than what I considered my open 10k time. Doing it again I would run them a bit slower… maybe 10k race time + 2min pace.
Those 2 x 20 min intervals on the bike at threshold pace or close to it get a lot of love here and elsewhere. I actually hate doing them because it’s so painful after a few minutes.
Was curious though why such an approach hasn’t been mentioned for running. I know that a lot of folks newer to running or with more fragile bodies might get injured with 2 x 20’ at faster than HM pace, but I can definitely do that, day in and day out without injury. (Not that I’d enjoy it anymore on the run than the bike.)
As someone else said, you may want to retest your threshold on the bike. They should be difficult maybe in the last few minutes but not in the first few.
it does make a diff for running!