Winter. Zwift hell. I like it a lot better than freezing rain or a fluid trainer, but you get the idea.
Question is, for my longer indoors rides where I can set targets in a workout I notice the 2nd hour of z2 feels a lot nicer than hour one. Something frees up.
Just a little light drink mix, no carb bombs or big snacks. Maybe 25g carb an hour. As I aint no pro my upper z2 is using glycogen for sure.
Is something switching over? HR, rpe, power all agree.
Just interested.
Look into the emperical cycling podcast, I think you might enjoy it. They’re doing a series rn on fat oxidation, and one thing mentioned in the latest episode is that in trained athletes, fat oxidation increases as the workout time increases, so you probably have more energy available. Long story short, you’re warmed up. Even if you’re not a pro, upper z2 will still be using a fair bit of fat
My guess: sounds like a case of insufficient warm-up.
Warming up slowly is valuable because it prevents fatigue accumulation in the muscles while the metabolic machinery in the muscle cells is still getting ramped up and put into action. If you exceed your aerobic metabolism ability initially (which is lower than your “z2” because that z2 value is a “warmed up aerobic ability”, you’ll accumulate fatigue quite quickly which will probably stay with you the rest of the effort. Or the fatigue will stay with you or until your cellular machinery is fully up and running, and able to sufficiently exceed the output currently required by whatever amount you previously exceeded it during your overly-short, or non-existent warm-up.
This is the same reason that pacing the first half mile or mile of a race is critically important for best possible race outcome. In racing, presumably, there will never be a time where your aerobic ability sufficiently exceeds your current output level to “pay pack” the debt.
Scenario with numbers:
z2 = 200-210W
Resting aerobic ability = 160W
20min warm-up needed for you personally to do 200W aerobically, without acid accumulation.
The first 20min of riding at 200W you’re slowly accumulating fatigue while your cells use too much anaerobic metabolism to get the job done.
If you’re riding at 200W for the duration of your ride, and you can produce 210W worth of energy aerobically, once fully warm, you may take as much as an hour to dissipate some of the fatigue at the onset of training.
That said, if you’re pressed for time, and you don’t mind a bit of discomfort in the onset of your rides, not much harm in skipping any warm-up and just getting to the more stimulative part of training.
Thanks!
In this one I designed in a 10min ramp warmup starting at 40% ramping to z3.
10min ramp down at end also.
Maybe that is the case.
It isn’t anything uncomfortable. Just the energy picked up a lot at 75min into the Z2 block. Fwiw, 73% was setting.
I will check out that podcast. If I wasnt shorter on time felt I could go ages. Maybe it was the empanada lunch. Mmmmmmmm.
FWIW I’ve had athletes who would complain of similar crummy-feeling first 30-60min of training if their ramp warm-up was not at least 30-40min long, even for z2 days.
FWIW I’ve had athletes who would complain of similar crummy-feeling first 30-60min of training if their ramp warm-up was not at least 30-40min long, even for z2 days.
Not only that, the fitter they get the longer it seems to take them to warm up. The bitching & moaning late season after they do a 1:15 -1 :45 min easy/aerobic ride about how crappy they felt until the last 20 minutes.
If I ever write a book it’s going to start with: “Don’t get really fit, don’t do all the training to race well. Your short workouts will often feel like ass for most of the duration.”
Oh good, i was having this problem at the end of last year where id feel off form for at least the first 30 min, warmup included and all, then id open up and feel great the remaining duration.
I summed it up to needing more time to warm up the larger engine i had going at the time. Fatigue didnt strike me as a factor…
Very good post Alex. This may be why im quite fond if the memory of andy potts saying he spends 45 min warming up before workouts. I am going to play around with this a bit more
My 30 minute easy runs are the hardest workouts I do…
When I’m doing a long run, if I can make it through the first 30 minutes normally I’ll be OK for another 90.
FWIW I’ve had athletes who would complain of similar crummy-feeling first 30-60min of training if their ramp warm-up was not at least 30-40min long, even for z2 days.
Not only that, the fitter they get the longer it seems to take them to warm up. The bitching & moaning late season after they do a 1:15 -1 :45 min easy/aerobic ride about how crappy they felt until the last 20 minutes.
Yup!
Here I sit, thinking my 10-15 minute warm-up feels great! I’ll let you guess how consistent my training has been lately.
Not only that, **the fitter they get the longer it seems to take them to warm up. **
I’ll go with this! Haha.
I will say, fitness is up over this time of year last year.
From some recent free rides on Zwift before this week’s structured z2 stuff I have set all-time PR’s for 90min and 2hr power. Soon to find out about 20min and under.
This is a very timely thread. I definitely have that “2nd wind†effect, exactkk look y as you described. As I age I realize that warmup and cold down are becoming ever more critical. I need a solid 30 minute warmup.
I take that back. Tonight I did 5x 10min of 40/20 at 105%/72%.
Sweet Jesus oww.
Speaking of worse. Geez.
Next time is 40/15. Then back to 40/20 with a 6th set. Goal being eventually 40min at 105% in a workout.
Next time is 40/15. Then back to 40/20 with a 6th set. Goal being eventually 40min at 105% in a workout.
Seriously, why try to dig yourself in to a deep whole with that kind of efforts?
Next time is 40/15. Then back to 40/20 with a 6th set. Goal being eventually 40min at 105% in a workout.
Seriously, why try to dig yourself in to a deep whole with that kind of efforts?
Well at some point as you work, the ftp you started with starts moving up. So you’re really eventually really doing them at less than 105%. I would never do that early in a training block.
40k TT is one of my things, so ftp being an hour instead of calculations of something else works out better.
If I want to do 58 min of ftp in a 40k race, I better be able to in training.
Cry in the dojo…
Curious what your heart rate did as you moved into the second hour? Could it be that hour one was truly Z2 for your heart rate, fat burning, then as you fatigued you switched to a more glucose fueled effort thus making it feel easier?
Maybe so. HR didn’t move really. Just chilling out at a HR about 6bpm under the upper end of Z2. So plenty under. Dead middle of range.
My meals are sometimes closer than ideal to workouts. Maybe digestion.
some years back i spent a summer biking across canada. that would be hours and hours of ‘zone 2’ type work, i guess. after a while i found it took me an hour on the saddle - sometimes more - to even feel like myself. i guess just a process of warming, digesting breakfast, etc.