Is there something going on there that stifles a riders ability ?
Botero, Julich, and Hondo all got better when they left. Maybe Ullrich should have gone to CSC 2 years ago when he had the chance…
yep Hondo has gone real well???
Well he was until he got busted but you know what I mean.
Happens alot with the major teams. Young riders leave when they start feeling they can actually win a race instead of just being a sherpa for their big team stars. They go to other teams where they can get helpers carrying their waterbottles for themselves. Tom Boonen also left Us Postal for that reason. It is not only a T-Mobile’s phenomenon.
Botero and Julich were hardly young riders. Both had solid successes before they joined…
Training to win is very different from training to help.
So you feel that they were recrutied as super domestiques as opposed to team leaders in their own right ?
On paper knowing that Julich has a 3rd place in the TDF and that Botero had rainbow bands would make it odd that they were recruited for this purpose…
Klep is right!
And this is not uncommon, take a look at the discovery (or US Postal) team. In the last couple of years there were at least two or three rider that were super domestiques and move to become a team leader (Hamilton, Heras, Landis…)
Yes. Botero and Julich only purpose in T-Mobile was to help Ullrich, I think there’s no question there. Look at Botero’s 2004 (?) season. The only race he was schedule to peak was the Tour and so much for that peak.
The question I always ask myself is why this top riders join those teams knowing from the start that they will have to help the “star” in the block? Do they join them 'cause of the money? IMO, yes.
Anyway, there’s also a bad management there. Look at Discovery and Salvodelli’s win in the Giro. They hired Salvodelli not to help Lance at the tour as some excepted but to win other major tour! Now that’s good management.
I think T-Mobile tried to do something like Discovery hiring Evans but that has turned into a bad choice.
True but that insinuates a predominate leader at the team (like postal). Bear in mind that Ullrich was in Coast at the time just what was their logic ? Mind you I guess thats why they recruited Evans as well…
The difference is that US Postal recruited high priced super domestics who turned out to be great rider and rode great for the team (Heras, Beltran, Azavedo, …) and then also developed US talent who turned around and left for other teams (Hamilton, Landis, Levi). Both are signs of a great team that builds talent but ultimately can’t afford to keep them all.
Now look at T-Mobile - they take a Giro winner Salvodelli and for two years on T-Mobile he does nothing - get injured two years in a row and barely makes a ripple. They take a world champion in Botero and try to make him a super domestic - didn’t he drop out of the Tour two years in a row. They take Bobby and turn him into a crap mid-pack rider. They take Kevin Livingston and get him so frustrated that he retires at 30 years old. It’s no fluke that post T-Mobile riders are having huge successes outside the team - look at all the above plus Cadel Evans today.
T-Mobile will fuck up the Tour again this year by going in with three potential leaders in Ullrich, Vino and Kloden (at least Kloden is sucking this year so they won’t have to deal with that). Want to see proof that they will fuck it up - here is a quote from Vino:
*“I’ve maybe still got two or three years left in the peloton but in that time I’ll be basing everything on winning the Tour,” said Vinokourov, also a two-time winner of Paris-Nice. “I’ve won other races, but now the Tour’s the only thing I’m really interested in.” *
Does this sound like someone who is committed to helping Ullrich win the tour? they will go ride like they always do - ride hard to chase down breakaways in week 1 so Zabel can finish 2nd - 4th in the bunch sprint and then ride 3 side-by-side all the way up each hill because they cannot work for each other. what a mess…
Wow. You and the editors at Velonews must have an ESP connection or something…
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8152.0.html
Sounds like a pretty poisonous management environment if you ask me. I don’t think most people would last that long under those conditions.
Godefroot, Pevanage, and the others responsible for the Telekom/T-Mobile mess over the years should be banned from their respective positions in the sport…Their riders seem to have more success IN SPITE of their management than BECAUSE of it. Riis…flopped a year after winning the tour…Ullrich…should have been multiple TdF winner by now, and without question one of the greatest riders ever…Zabel…should have won a seventh green jersey. Etc. Yes, T-Mobile has been a top team and won lots of races…but they aren’t winning the pinnacle events and awards…at least they aren’t winning them as much as their super-talented team’s promise says they should. The whole Ullrich-to-Coast debacle should never have happened…
The question I always ask myself is why this top riders join those teams knowing from the start that they will have to help the “star” in the block? Do they join them 'cause of the money? IMO, yes.
Yes, money, money, money.
That’s the reason why Tyler left CSC too.
Discovery and T-Mobile and probably Phonak too are the richest teams in the peolton. They can buy top riders like Heras, Botero, Savoldelli, Popovych etc., then they have less competitors to worry about and great helpers on their on team.
Armstrong also wanted to buy but he decied to join CSC to race aganst Armstrong instead of helping him.
He coould probably have gotten more money if he had joined Postal instead.
Money is also the main reason why Ullrich went back to T-Mobile instead of CSC when he had the offer.
UK Gear Muncher,
Yes! You are absolutely right on track.
They have too many stars and too many conflicting goals in virtually every event they enter. They are almost never working all together for one purpose or one rider for an entire event or day. Even team management can’t figure out who to support in a grand tour.
Let’s compare the Postal/Discovery teams. One leader with 8 riders in support versus Telekom with at least 3 leaders with six support riders minus Zabel, the sprinter, going for stage wins.
If you were a potential grand tour winner, which team would you want to be on? The team with at least 3 other teammates holding back to protect their personal goals?
Do you think Lance and Johann don’t realize this and don’t take this into account? Why do so many teams and watchers comment about how strong the Postal/Discovery teams were/is? Its all for one on this team as it should be if you are going to win the tour. Especially if you are going to win the tour 6 times and are thinking of trying for a seventh.
Now to answer your question. “Why do some riders flourish AFTER they have left T Mobile?”
They flourish in part because they move to teams were they become central riders, team captains or co-captains. They are given opportunities to be something more than simply a domestique or super domestique. They are much more interested, motivated and excited in the development of their potential.
Actually Tyler mainly left CSC because Phonak offered to make him the sole leader while CSC was still having multiple leaders.
Agreed, but the bottom line is that in the T-Mobile heiarchy for the past 6 - 7 years, in the big stage races riders are either riding for Ullrich, Kloden or Vino on GC or helping set Zabel up for the sprint. There is not much room there for movement. And that in and of itself creates some problems and internal team friction, I am sure out on the road in a race - is it Zabel’s day for the sprint or will they ride for a win with the other big guns? Notice that a number of other teams tend to specialize. Discovery/Postal - clearly is built around stage race and GC standings - for Armstrong in the Tour de France in particular, but also look at the recent Giro. They have not gone out of their way to recruit a big name sprinter for one-day classic wins. Contrast that with Lotto, Quick-Step or Fassa - all three teams seem to be built completely around the one-day classics and or sprint finish wins and big stage wins and GC in grand tours is not that important to them. T- Mobile has been trying to do both, perhaps to their detriment.
Fleck
Ullrich definitely made the wrong choice not going to CSC (except financially as T-mobile was paying a lot more)…
the reason he is not winning is that he doesn’t have someone smart, to kick him in the butt when needed…which is what would happen if he was riding for CSC and Bjarne Riis…
Instead of this he stays at TM with Godefroot/Pevenage who have to be the worst manager/tactician combo ever in cycling history.
Hi,
There’s a great article on Velonews.com about that very same phenomena you mention. It’s analysis of the team, and basically the writer came to the conclusion that T-mobile isn’t much of a team and there’s no real cohesion among the riders. They all get paid the big bucks, but there’s no passion there. The author also mentioned, which seems obvious to me know, that Ullrich’s best effort during the Lance era was when he was ridign for Bianchi not T-Mobile.
Check out the article:
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8152.0.html
It’s really sad how T-mobile wastes their talent.
Best,
Robert
Actually Tyler mainly left CSC because Phonak offered to make him the sole leader while CSC was still having multiple leaders.
Yes that was his excuse.
Nobody admidts they switch because of the money.
Phonak bought him as their tickt into TdF. (Where he failed btw. So much for being the sole leader).