(annoyed that my Pulitzer-level response to a “Death Wobble” post never made it before the thread was pulled)
It ain’t the bike’s fault: http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8h.5.html
Get your bike back, and offer apologies all around. If everyone involved had understood the issue, none of that stuff would have happened.
“Not sure why the post was pulled but it doens’t matter”
ADMINISTRATOR’S NOTE: This is the forum Administrator’s now taking over the rest of this post. Here’s what the Forum FAQ says that is topical to this issue:
WHAT CAN’T I POST HERE? Your post should not be off-topic. We are especially cranky about trial-by-internet. Do not register to post on this forum only to have your first post be a complaint against a company doing business in the sport of triathlon. After you’ve been here awhile, if you do want to lodge a complaint, it should include documentation, it should be measured, it should not be personal, and you should demonstrate discretion.
This should answer your question posed above.
Well, if Jobst said it, it must be true…
Seriously, I agree with that–about 98% of the time. However…
In my bike industry days, I had a situation with a customer that I swear could have been Alfman (but a different manufacturer);to the point of the UPS call tag debacle–along with an irresponsible shop blaming us for not issuing call tags, etc, etc.
Anyway, sure enough–we were able to duplicate the death wobble JRA. I never believed it until we got his bike back. We changed out the fork and it went away. Stangely, the alignment tool showed the fork to be straight?? I guess there’s a first for everthing…
Not a law. Just a rule. Go read the FAQ. Here’s the relevant section, which you EXACTLY violated:
WHAT CAN’T I POST HERE? Your post should not be off-topic. We are especially cranky about trial-by-internet. Do not register to post on this forum only to have your first post be a complaint against a company doing business in the sport of triathlon. After you’ve been here awhile, if you do want to lodge a complaint, it should include documentation, it should be measured, it should not be personal, and you should demonstrate discretion. You should also not lodge a complaint against a named entity unless you yourself are willing to be identifiable, that is, no anonymous rants. And finally, do not EVER say somebody’s product is unsafe unless you have rock-solid demonstrable proof. This is as much for your benefit as anyone’s (we’d prefer your hot temper doesn’t result in a lawsuit a manufacturer lodges against you).
Best advice I ever received on death wobble came from a slowman article- “Get your butt off the saddle.” I had been having trouble at 43+ mph. Lifting my butt off the seat made it go away. I have clocked 48 mph since with no wobble or anything, just smooth cycling. I am slowly working my way back up into the 50’s. I am still a bit scared- funny how being in your 40’s gives you a sense of your own mortality.
Not sure why the post was pulled but it doens’t matter. Ken, we are talking about two different things. It’s not the rider. I road that bike for 1.5 years thorughout Colorado (Triple Bypass) as well as IMC with no issues. Apolgizes offerred to no one unless I violated so ST law by relating a real life experience. This site must be ownd by ABG.
Nobody apologies on ST. You apologize to Dan by adhering to the rules of HIS forum.
You should apologize to your LBS, and to anyone at ABG who you accused of producing a shoddy product.
Speed wobble on a particular bike shows up under particular circumstances; in your case, you just might not have hit those circumstances. Even something as simple as weight loss/gain by you might effect this.
You are a hair’s breadth away from having your IP address blocked from this site. Play nice.
“You should apologize to your LBS, and to anyone at ABG who you accused of producing a shoddy product.”
i might add a coupla points here. one, i choose to ride a 61cm tiphoon made by ABG in its titanium factory specifically because of that bike’s ability to withstand high speed wobble and other unpredictable frame behavior.
two, my own bikes, built in my own factory, would occasionally exhibit high speed wobble. put that rider on another, identical, bike and no wobble. put another rider on the same “wobbly” bike, no wobble. change something or other out on that bike, and the same rider, same bike, exhibit no wobble.
wobble is very simply not a manufacturer defect. it’s a problem, sure, and it needs to be addressed, but it’s not a defect.
Good Lord, Alf is a good person who I know personally who clearly is experiencing some frustration. I believe someone pointed him to ST so he could tell what he’s experienced. I guess all of you when coming to a forum for the first time make it a point to go read the posting rules. Give the guy a break and take a look at yourselves for once. This sport used to be cool and now it’s for the most part a bunch of self-righteous jerks.
Good Lord, Alf is a good person who I know personally who clearly is experiencing some frustration. I believe someone pointed him to ST so he could tell what he’s experienced. I guess all of you when coming to a forum for the first time make it a point to go read the posting rules. Give the guy a break and take a look at yourselves for once. This sport used to be cool and now it’s for the most part a bunch of self-righteous jerks.
Gosh, you’re right. I started another thread to inform your good buddy that his bike isn’t broken, and include a link to some really great information (the wreck.bikes.tech FAQ), because I’m a self-righteous jerk. I warn him, quite politely thank you, that he’ll get kicked off this forum if he doesn’t adhere to the rules, because I’m a self-righteous jerk.
When I arrive at a party, I don’t just start acting out my frustration. I determine the atmosphere of the party, and act accordingly.
But I’m a self-righteous jerk.
To be fair, when you get to the party and start acting like a jerk you should wear a Zorro mask so nobody can hold you accountable for your actions.
“I guess all of you when coming to a forum for the first time make it a point to go read the posting rules.”
as far as i am concerned, the quote above is the most important part of your post. i’m certain alf has his fine qualities, and may be a fine person. i hope he remains and becomes a member of the community.
at the same time, he broke a forum rule. further, the rule is not arbitrary, it’s there to prevent an act that is in itself self-serving and destructive. his response to this was to engage in another predictable tactic – up there in frequency with trial-by-internet – to accuse the forum owner of being bought and paid for by the attacked commercial enterprise.
forums tend to have lifespans. they are born, they grow, they prosper, they stagnate, they die. this is because moderators let the inmates run pell mell through the asylum. that paradigm tends not to happen here. chastening is unpleasant. more unpleasant yet (from the POV of an ex-manufacture) is having all your hard work and personal financial risk and good efforts be eroded by somebody airing dirty laundry on a forum board, and it’s especially maddening if you the manufacturer made no technical errors in the construction of your product.
Just sometimes, I think we get so upset and angry about something that we can’t see the forest through the trees. Alf is clearly upset and although he may have gone about posting his frustrations wrong according to the “forum rules” I don’t think he or anyone else deserves to be treated as he was in this thread. We all make mistakes and sometimes act out of anger or frustration without thinking things through first. I’m upset because this is not the first time I have seen people attack others on this forum. It’s frustrating and for the most part keeps me away! 
Thanks for addressing me Dan and I’m still coming out to the ranch whether you like it or not! 
But I’m a self-righteous jerk.
I thought that was required for membership here. 
you are a very smart man.
“I’m upset because this is not the first time I have seen people attack others on this forum. It’s frustrating and for the most part keeps me away!”
you’re always welcome at the ranch. and of course *you’re *always subject to being attacked here, depending on which males are also visiting
i hope alf sticks around. i’ve got some familiarity with what he’s doing up there. his knowhow would be welcome here. we would benefit from his experience, and on the flip side i’ll bet i could help him sort out his bike problem.
It ain’t the bike’s fault: http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8h.5.html
This is a predictable engineering problem, that an engineer can solve. If a frame manufacturer chooses to not hire engineers, and they produce a product that is not safe, that is their responsibility. The problem, in my opinion, is companies who manufacture frames, or any other bicycle component, without proper engineering.
Paul
“This is a predictable engineering problem, that an engineer can solve.”
i’ll bite. how does the bike company’s engineer solve it? (note that the oft-copied jobst brand article you reference does not mention badly-engineered frames as the culprit).
Dan & others. My apolgies to all for not reading the rules of the forum. Most of your bring out valid points (Thanks Keri for covering my back, Ken, take a chill pill). I know what I’ve experienced and good for Dan for creating a forum with such stringent rules. I’m confident I’ve attempted to resolve my situation in an amicable manner with the company. I’m confident the service provided is less than acceptable by most consumers expectations. My post was concerning poor service, read it again. It wasn’t about poor design or a crappy bike. I’ve ridden that bike in the Triple ByPass and at IMC with no issues. It was about a company that doesn’t take care of it’s customers. I didn’t ask any one for their opinion on why death wobbles occur. As far as apolgizing to the LBS. Are you telling me that a local bike shop can sell a name brand bike, elect to not carry the bike any more and then when a customer returns with isues (that they were aware of the first time the problem occurred) they say we no longer carry that product so we aren’t helping you? I’m not angry I’m frustrated. Most of you jumped to the wrong conculsion. Look at what you are discussing now, the engineers. My original rant never said one word about design flaws etc. I’m simply trying to get my bike back (for the second year in a row) so I can race.
Already, I did use the word defective product once in my original rant BUT the rant was about customer service plain and simple. I’ll go away. You guys carry on with product design stuff. I need to find a bike to race on this weekend…Peace
Edit
In my original response, I was quoting the “It ain’t the bikes fault” comment. I did not mean to insinuate that I was referencing the Jobst Brandt article.
Weird, only about half my post showed up. The best parts, that answer your question, were somehow deleted??? I also qualified my response saying that I have a professional background in the field of controlling dynamic (prone to resonate) mechanical structures.
So, here is roughly what I had said in my first post. Resonance is a system issue. In this case the system is the frame, all components, and rider. The designer (engineer) needs to take into account the resonant frequency of the system, consider the driving forces, and determine if the resonance is acceptable or not. If not, then material selection could be changed, as well as size of tubes, shape of tubes, wall thicknesses, etc. All these can be used to move the frequency of resonance, as well as change the resonant Q factor (see below).
Or, the engineer could use something like a constrained layer damper. A constrained layer damper is a sheet of resonably rigid material on one side and rubbery material on the other. Applied rubber side down to the inside or outside of the top or down tubes would substantially change the resonant frequency, as well as the Q factor. In this case, Q factor refers to the amplitude of resonance that will result from a given a input.
The problem as I see it is that often bicycle frames, and sometimes components, are “designed” by someone with no engineering background. Saying a structural resonance is not the bicycle designers fault would be about the same as saying handlebar failure, when used by a larger rider, is not the handlebar designers fault. If there is a rider weight limit that applies to handlebars, it should be noted in the product literature. If a frame designer cannot make a frame in a particular (large) size that will not resonate, they should not produce those larger size(s).
Paul