For those who have used both the Shimano and Sram 12spd road group sets which do you feel is best and why?
Whether is be Red, Force, Ultegra or Dura-Ace which do you think is best?
Personal I haven’t used either.
I feel both Red and Dura-Ace are over priced.
Rival is showing good value and likely most are still choosing between Ultegra and Force
What are the biggest wins/pros and losses/cons of the offerings from both manufacturers
Both seem to be having some supply issues
I have used neither, but I will probably go with Shimano when that time comes. I currently have 11S Red on my road bike and 11S Di2 on my TT bike. I absolutely love eTap on the road bike, but I cannot stand their decision on the 10S cog. Basically, the bottom two cogs are high friction and useless to me. I prefer that Shimano starts with the 11S cogs, and that will earn them the win.
I wish they both went with narrower spacing. It is like they did not improve anything with the extra cog. SRAM smallest is 10-26, and Shimano is 11-30. Boo!
For those who have used both the Shimano and Sram 12spd road group sets which do you feel is best and why?
I’ll be in New Bike Mode by the end of next year (Long Story), and when I do, if I have a choice and I may be building the bike up al la carte as I like to do, I’m most likley going SRAM (Red or Force). I say this as a life-long Shimano-man ( Still riding mechanical Dura Ace). I just like the simplicity and cleaness of the completely wireless set up.
If I am completely wrong - talk me out of it!!
I’m all in on SRAM right now. Having ridden both I like the simplicity of the SRAM setup and have actually done a parts swap quickly. I have a few bikes and am always moving stuff around. Batteries are replaceable so if I always have an extra I’m in good shape no matter what. I think the system approach by SRAM is pretty cool. I have XX1 axs and road Axs and have swapped parts to make crazy climbing road bike. I’ve also run 1x TT bike and 2x TT bike depending on the course and what gear range I want.
I have pet peeves with both systems but honestly I just lake the ergonomics/ease of use of the SRAM stuff.
I have wired DA Di2 on my old TT bike and Red AXS on my new (2019) bike. I have loved both and think performance is very similar. The Sram is certainly cleaner and very easy to use.
I’d like to hear from someone who has the new 12 speed Di2.
Not trying to be snarky - Who outside of online reviewers has ridden Shimano 12 speed?
I have a Force AXS XPLR group and it’s fantastic. Definitely quicker than 11 speed etap. I wish they had implemented some auxiliary buttons at the top of the hood like Shimano did, but that’s all I can think of. Their aerobar setup doesn’t seem well thought out, but the 12 speed di2 version for aerobars isn’t much better with similar sized junction boxes (SRAM calls theirs a blipbox) and wires still needing to connect everything. The blipbox is stupid expensive though.
Seems like bikes are coming into the shops or available online with all the AXS stuff. Buying AXS parts alone is pretty tough right now, but only one company actually has stuff in the wild. Rival AXS is everything the higher two groups are, but heavier and you can’t add secondary shifters to it.
I switched from Sram to Shimano when special XD drivers, DUB 28.99 mm spindles, 107 bcd cranks become a thing. 9/10 times I would trade a couple extra grams for a 16t or other bigger cog and normal/oversized chainrings for the friction inducing small-small setup that SRAM is trying to force. The wireless is cool, way simpler to build a bike with but the number of issues I’ve seen with it, I really like that the 9200 Gen still offers a wired option. If you’re okay with the extra few grams, the Ultegra is looking very nice.
I switched from Sram to Shimano when special XD drivers…
That part sucks. The few XD drivers I have aren’t compatible with XDR and it’s averaging around $80 a freehub to add XDR drivers. If I’m brave enough to race cross next year with a $400 rear derailleur, I will likely be using the Shimano cassettes on the HG drivers I already own.
I would like to see either companies add cassettes with a 12tooth bring their smallest ring.
No one here has ridden 12sp yet unless they review for a magazine… but based on what we know we can make some safe assumptions.
If you think DA is overpriced, consider this:
The only reason to buy Red/DA over Force/Ultegra is weight. Mechanically they are the same. But Red is around 200-250g heavier than DA which is the same as Ultegra. FYI, there may be a lighter Red groupset coming early next year, without clutche and focused on road.
Generally Di2 is more reliable and shifts a bit smoother, just marginally though. Many threads here and elsewhere about front chain drops and parts replacements at the rate of Garmin and Wahoo products to resolve issues.
If a battery dies on AXS, you can keep the functioning one in the rear to get you home. Shimano basically has the equivalent of this built in. Once the battery is very low, you can shift the rear a few hundred more times while the front is locked out.
I understand the “simplicity” of AXS, but I don’t understand how it is of any relevance unless you build bikes every day for a living. 12sp Di2 just has 3 wires left, none through the cockpit (which is a minor thing anyway since you are running brake lines if your bike is integrated). You save 15 minutes one time at the initial install and are left with a groupset that is less reliable, has a fraction of Di2 battery life, and is much heavier. Get the Ultegra then and save a ton of money for the same weight. With AXS you are paying DA money for Ultegra equivalent groupsets.
When I say reliable, I mean generally. I’m sure someone will give some anecdote of having no issues but there is far more information on AXS issues online than Di2, even pre-Covid when Di2 adoption was significantly higher than AXS.
If you don’t care about weight, battery life , price, or reliability, you should care about gearing. There’s the 10t thing which may or may not be important to you. But I really think Sram went the wrong way on the chainring jump. A smaller jump in the front means bigger jumps in the back are required for the same total range, which is fixed based on your terrain. To me that’s stupid. I shift the rear 20x more than the front, so thats where I want small jumps.
The way I see it, AXS costs as much as Di2 but is marginally worse in about 10 different ways that matter while I’m riding. In return, it save 15 minutes on a single install…
No one here has ridden 12sp yet unless they review for a magazine… but based on what we know we can make some safe assumptions.
If you think DA is overpriced, consider this:
The only reason to buy Red/DA over Force/Ultegra is weight. Mechanically they are the same. But Red is around 200-250g heavier than DA which is the same as Ultegra. FYI, there may be a lighter Red groupset coming early next year, without clutche and focused on road.
Generally Di2 is more reliable and shifts a bit smoother, just marginally though. Many threads here and elsewhere about front chain drops and parts replacements at the rate of Garmin and Wahoo products to resolve issues.
If a battery dies on AXS, you can keep the functioning one in the rear to get you home. Shimano basically has the equivalent of this built in. Once the battery is very low, you can shift the rear a few hundred more times while the front is locked out.
I understand the “simplicity” of AXS, but I don’t understand how it is of any relevance unless you build bikes every day for a living. 12sp Di2 just has 3 wires left, none through the cockpit (which is a minor thing anyway since you are running brake lines if your bike is integrated). You save 15 minutes one time at the initial install and are left with a groupset that is less reliable, has a fraction of Di2 battery life, and is much heavier. Get the Ultegra then and save a ton of money for the same weight. With AXS you are paying DA money for Ultegra equivalent groupsets.
When I say reliable, I mean generally. I’m sure someone will give some anecdote of having no issues but there is far more information on AXS issues online than Di2, even pre-Covid when Di2 adoption was significantly higher than AXS.
If you don’t care about weight, battery life , price, or reliability, you should care about gearing. There’s the 10t thing which may or may not be important to you. But I really think Sram went the wrong way on the chainring jump. A smaller jump in the front means bigger jumps in the back are required for the same total range, which is fixed based on your terrain. To me that’s stupid. I shift the rear 20x more than the front, so thats where I want small jumps.
The way I see it, AXS costs as much as Di2 but is marginally worse in about 10 different ways thay matter while I’m riding. In return, it save 15 minutes on a single install…
i agree with all that and personally just alays get along with shimano better
i do have a little bit of relevant experience with shimano 12sp to share though. i’ve been running 12sp XTR on my mtb for a couple of years now and the hype of hyperglide+ is real - this mechanical groupset shifts so sweetly - i’m comparing dirt encrusted mtb to DA9100 Di2, i can only imagine DA9200 Di2 will be the best shifting groupset ever
I would say it depends on the bike. For a 1x TT bike, the SRAM solution is so much easier and clean. The interesting bit is going to be whether you can run these with a Shimano or Campy rear cassette. I wouldn’t want to have to modify my collection of rear wheels and that 10 tooth cog sure doesn’t make things easy.
I would like to see either companies add cassettes with a 12tooth bring their smallest ring.
Insert “THIS†meme here! Did you listen to the Zipp Cast podcast with Ashton Lambie? They briefly touched on that he likes the big-big methodology, rides a 52 chainring, and doesn’t really use his 10T cog as the result. I was rolling with laughter. I’m sure SRAM was not going pleased, honestly I’m kind of surprised that the Q/A wasn’t cut from the final edit.
Not trying to be snarky - Who outside of online reviewers has ridden Shimano 12 speed?
*Select online reviewers. I can’t get a hold of it.
I would like to see either companies add cassettes with a 12tooth bring their smallest ring.
MikeTri86 for president!
https://www.pushys.com.au/...BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
They have in 11speed, I see no reason they can’t do it with 12speed.
I would trade a couple extra grams for a 16t or other bigger cog and normal/oversized chainrings for the friction inducing small-small setup that SRAM is trying to force.
I don’t know if the effects are real. Certainly if you would ride 16t a lot, your chainline is skewed slightly inward and that’s costing a fraction of a watt which is about the same as the friction advantages of running a larger chainring and cog. A compact chainring probably has the advantage overall to a semi-compact ot standard chainring routinely ridden with a skewed chainline in larger cogs, because mechanical efficiency won’t differ, but with a compact you are pushing smaller plates through the air.
The friction differences between a SRAM setup with smaller rings and the Shimano setup with bigger ones amount to small fractions of a watt. The difference between a SRAM chain and a DA chain (Dura-ace being much better) is far, far greater.
My next bike is going to be almost certainly Shimano 12 speed, though.
I understand the “simplicity” of AXS, but I don’t understand how it is of any relevance unless you build bikes every day for a living. 12sp Di2 just has 3 wires left, none through the cockpit (which is a minor thing anyway since you are running brake lines if your bike is integrated). You save 15 minutes one time at the initial install and are left with a groupset that is less reliable, has a fraction of Di2 battery life, and is much heavier. Get the Ultegra then and save a ton of money for the same weight. With AXS you are paying DA money for Ultegra equivalent groupsets.
Except if it’s a TT bike then you have the same amount of wires as 11 speed. As a long time shimano user and someone who travels with their bike frequently, I’m considering SRAM on my next TT bike just for the benefit of less wires.
People have mentioned price but isn’t DA actually more expensive when you add their pm (which you can’t get) vs SRAM axs that comes with a quarq?
Not trying to be snarky - Who outside of online reviewers has ridden Shimano 12 speed?
*Select online reviewers. I can’t get a hold of it.
Yikes.
Nobodies like me have 12 speed AXS at home with a perfectly functioning power meter included. Shimano doesn’t have a good track record of making a decent power meter or getting parts out in a timely manner. They are still missing parts from the XTR launch from a few years ago.
I’m not sure how many people there are who are confident in the Shimano power meter.
For me personally it would be either go Sram or go Ultegra and get eg Assioma peddles.
Personally I like the paddle shifting of sram
I like the smaller size of the Shimano’s derailleurs
I also like the compatibility of parts from Shimano
I also think the performance is better on Shimano
If the power meter is the driving decision for someone than Sram would be my suggestion
however if it’s anything else I would go Shimano.
However Ultegra is looking like it will be priced similar to Force which as you say comes with a power meter and Shimano doesn’t, which makes the most value for money group set no longer seem all that great.
The best value for money group set is arguably the new Sram Rival.
I understand the “simplicity” of AXS, but I don’t understand how it is of any relevance unless you build bikes every day for a living. 12sp Di2 just has 3 wires left, none through the cockpit (which is a minor thing anyway since you are running brake lines if your bike is integrated). You save 15 minutes one time at the initial install and are left with a groupset that is less reliable, has a fraction of Di2 battery life, and is much heavier. Get the Ultegra then and save a ton of money for the same weight. With AXS you are paying DA money for Ultegra equivalent groupsets.
Except if it’s a TT bike then you have the same amount of wires as 11 speed. As a long time shimano user and someone who travels with their bike frequently, I’m considering SRAM on my next TT bike just for the benefit of less wires.
People have mentioned price but isn’t DA actually more expensive when you add their pm (which you can’t get) vs SRAM axs that comes with a quarq?