When are you "ready" for speed work?

Triathlon Forum
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Was there a particular marker or indication that you were ready to start phasing in speed work to your running program? At what point does “run more” have a diminishing return where you started to incorporate the 80/20 into your weekly program? What was that trigger point?

As an example: did you hit 40 mpw consistently for a year before starting to incorporate running faster/harder?

Or asked another way: Am I increasing the risk of injury by incorporating speed work into my workouts if I do not have sufficient base?

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That’s a great question. I’m looking forward to the educated responses. Thanks for asking!

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Was there a particular marker or indication that you were ready to start phasing in speed work to your running program? At what point does “run more” have a diminishing return where you started to incorporate the 80/20 into your weekly program? What was that trigger point?

As an example: did you hit 40 mpw consistently for a year before starting to incorporate running faster/harder?

Or asked another way: Am I increasing the risk of injury by incorporating speed work into my workouts if I do not have sufficient base?

To answer your last question first: yes. To be more general, speed-work ALWAYS increases the risk of injury. That risk may be acceptable in the right circumstances, but it is ALWAYS there.

I don’t think there’s a point of diminishing returns on run volume for the typical triathlete. Maybe somewhere north of 80mpw, and a just running along pace of sub-7:30/mi?

You didn’t define what you consider speed work. To me, its all-out 800s and 400s (or less)…mile-reps to a lesser extent. By the time you get to 2mi its a threshold / tempo effort.

I don’t do formal speed work (800s/400s) unless there’s an event within a 12 weeks or so. Its icing, not cake. Actually, maybe its the sprinkles on top of the icing that’s covering the cake—the icing is the threshold work. I always want more cake. The best correlation with run-pace is volume—moar miles, moar often. So, outside of specific race-prep, its as much volume as I can fit it, mostly easy / sometimes hard. Hard mostly being tempo to lower-threshold range efforts. That’s not to say I won’t run fast sometimes—I always do strides. And, I might occasionally do a few 800s at 90% effort…just for fun.

But, any regular formalized program of 200s/400s/800s/1600s week over week, is reserved for the last 12 weeks before a specific race.

I think your rule of thumb is about right. 40mpw, 1 year min. 2 would be better. You’re looking for a solid indicator of resiliency, and a lack of injury proneness. 20mpw for 6 months isn’t enough. But, if you can run 6-7 miles a day, every day, for a couple of years with no injuries…that’s a good indicator. If there’s any history of injury, the risk isn’t worth the reward…just keep running.

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It’s individual. The general response is you are ready when you run out of time for long slow or hit 60 miles per week.

After several failed attempts to get ready for a marathon on a run hard / run less strategy I did three different marathon builds:

(1) I averaged 60 miles per week all slow.*

(2) I averaged 85 miles per week all slow.*

(3) I averaged 75 miles per week with one day of speed work and one day with some tempo.

*All slow is not exactly true. I did one MP run of 12 miles within one of my long runs in #1 and #2. Did the same in #3.

All three were BQ’s and with each attempt I ran faster, but I doubt I could have gone straight to build #3.

I am heavier at 180ish so the speed work beats me up pretty good. I enjoy running and long slow (time on my feet) just feels good. I end up fairly fatigued just as I arrive to my taper. Then it is magical how well you are able to run on race day.

If you don’t have a history of injury and are lighter you could probably introduce speed work sooner. But listen to your body.

I follow Maffetone method for my “slow” pace. Also, I started out with a Barry P approach and continue to use it when I build up my weekly mileage. The plans I followed for #2 (loosely) and #3 (tightly) was a Phitzinger Advanvced Plan.

Good luck!

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You can always do “speed work”. It’s more about how much you can handle in both volume and intensity. The most basic speed work could simply involve running drills and and handful accelerations throughout a run, or a brief (10-15 mins) skill and speed session to warm up before a ride. The better your base though, the better you may recover and actually augment your distance training with more complex interval training; the training benefit of speed work can be realized with any volume at anytime, given you progress your speed skills appropriately with your base. Don’t dive into anything complex or with long or many sets even though you have plenty of volume, work into them using shorter and fewer intervals.

Risk always increases with more volume and/or intensity you haven’t done before. Also, more intensity elicits a higher training response which in turn requires more recovery, so if you’re just now adding intensity you may want to dial back total volume; as in more than just trading the “slow” training time for “fast” training time. Something around however much time you do intensity work is how much you also subtract from your total volume, for a little while at least and build back up but keep the ratio at “80/20”. For example, if you’re training 5 hours per week, and want to add 1 hours’ worth of speed work, subtract 1 hour from total volume. Which gives 4 hours total training time that includes 45 mins and change to add basic speed work throughout the week (and not necessarily all in one session) to start with. Keeping a long run once a week will more that maintain your endurance. Then build volume with your intensity blocks back up as you adapt, if needed, or simply increase the complexity of the sets while keeping overall volume down*.*

As for diminishing returns, when your volume increase and does not yield an increase in overall speed and/or your schedule cannot handle more volume are good indicators. And, you can do a lot of low intensity volume for many years before you top out. That said, for most of us a balanced approach is a practical way to go.

Best

Edit: added “low intensity” for clarification

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Are you all saying that before incorporating any running beyond a slow easy pace a runner should first be able to sustain 40+ MPW for at least a year? I’m surprised by that. Seems an excessively high mileage goal just to graduate to adding speed work. Most of the training programs I’ve seen have a run each week with some speed efforts, with remaining runs at easy pace.

I’ve read on this forum or perhaps elsewhere, that if all you do is run slow, you’ll become an expert at running slow.

Given a life that includes full-time job, family, biking, swimming and interests outside of triathlon, I don’t see how a floor of 40 MPW is very realistic. Never mind the fact that the stated 40 miles was just a blanket statement, not tied to a particular race distance.

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When you have a cake

< look it up >
.

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After 6 weeks of easy running I incorporate some speed work as threshold and/or intervals (as Daniels defines)

The point of diminishing returns on the run for me while training for triathlon is 30 miles per week. It used to be higher but now after that my bike training is less effective.

Yes, there is a risk of injury that’s why Daniels has runners start with 8% or less of their weekly mileage.

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To me, its all-out 800s and 400s (or less)…

All-out seems excessive. A genuinely all-out 400 is different than say a classic 12x400 @ faster than VO2.

I remember doing all-out 400s as part of 4x400 team, and that’s a whole other deal than even fast speedwork for a middle distance runner (much less long distance runner).

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To me, its all-out 800s and 400s (or less)…

All-out seems excessive. A genuinely all-out 400 is different than say a classic 12x400 @ faster than VO2.

I remember doing all-out 400s as part of 4x400 team, and that’s a whole other deal than even fast speedwork for a middle distance runner (much less long distance runner).

Yes, of course. Not a single all-out 400 or 800 race effort. But, a set of then 6-8x800 or 12-16x400 on roughly equal rest (or more), at a pace that’s sustainable for “one-ish more” than the planned session. The point being that its truly FAST running.

As do I. I was a 400/800/1600 runner back in the stone age—when run till you puke was a training plan.

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I think Tom’s response is a good conservative answer. But in some sense the answer is also that you can always do some speedwork and it will be beneficial – not just for sharpening but also for improving running economy and teaching you to relax while running fast. What I’m thinking about is more like strides, diagonals, or 200s – at say 5k to 1 mile pace but with plenty of rest. You’re leaving a lot on the table in terms of speed development if you don’t do any of this ever, and it’s not super high injury risk because the reps are short enough that your form should be good the whole time (and you need to not sprint these, you’re just running fast and smooth).

You can also always do some harder speedwork, like 400s or 800s, on low volume. But it’s very easy to overdo the number of reps if you’re not running many mpw! Off a 60 mpw base I’d consider doing a weekly track workout of 8x400@mile pace on 2:00 jog, or 12x400@3k pace on 1:00 jog, or 6x800@5k pace on 2:00 float – all to be pretty hard efforts and have substantial injury risk. If you’re only at 20 mpw, then maybe you can scale down to 4x400@3k or 3x400@mile or 2x800@5k, but then it’s almost like, “what’s the point of going to the track for this?” The stimulus would be pretty small and the injury risk would be large, and you’d be better off in the long term building volume and running more. If you want to run your best mile or 5k possible off 20 mpw + tri training, though, go ahead and do a small set of track repeats. Just keep it small if your volume is low, make sure you warm up and cool down well, do some drills and strides before jumping into your set, and be aware that injury risk extends after you finish the workout.

There’s almost no diminishing return to running more if you are a pure runner, until you are running so much that your body is on the verge of breaking down. For many, if built up to over a time span of years, this would be over 100 mpw. This isn’t actually that much training time, though – maybe 1.5-2 hours/day on average. The point of diminishing returns for a triathlete is likely much lower because a lot of easy running won’t help your bike or swim splits.

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Was there a particular marker or indication that you were ready to start phasing in speed work to your running program?

Assuming it’s an endurance event, 6-8 weeks before a race. Accumulate volume til then.

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Was there a particular marker or indication that you were ready to start phasing in speed work to your running program?

Assuming it’s an endurance event, 6-8 weeks before a race. Accumulate volume til then.

I’d listen to rruff on just about anything. His answers are curt because they’re correct.

That said, you can certainly vary your tempo to your liking at any stage of a training program, incorporating “speed” work when you feel like it. Call it a tempo run, a fartlek, or even just some 100/200m strides after an easy run. None of these will cause you to peak too early, and will help to mix up training and keep you motivated without resorting to true intervals. Do a session, take a couple/few days to recover and see how it affected your body, and reassess if you want to do another one.

If you’re asking this question, you aren’t yet looking for a structured, periodized plan to race at your absolute potential. But if you’re asking this question, you’re also probably ready to try it.

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But in some sense the answer is also that you can always do some speedwork and it will be beneficial – not just for sharpening but also for improving running economy and teaching you to relax while running fast. What I’m thinking about is more like **strides, diagonals, or 200s – at say 5k to 1 mile pace but with plenty of rest. **

If you’re only at 20 mpw, then maybe you can scale down to 4x400@3k or 3x400@mile or 2x800@5k, but then it’s almost like, “what’s the point of going to the track for this?” The stimulus would be pretty small and the injury risk would be large, and you’d be better off in the long term building volume and running more.

There’s almost no diminishing return to running more if you are a pure runner, until you are running so much that your body is on the verge of breaking down…this would be over 100 mpw. The point of diminishing returns for a triathlete is likely much lower because a lot of easy running won’t help your bike or swim splits.

For me as a Sprint/OD triathlete…that point was somewhere around 40 mpw. Probably a bit higher. My swim begins to suffer at that level. I can maintain the swim at 40mpw, but it begins to backslide above there. But, giving up a little on the swim was still a better trade. Running 40mpw (easy) didn’t hurt my bike splits.

People vastly underestimate how fast you can get on pure easy volume and strides alone.

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Like so many parts of training, the answer is ‘it depends.’ Some factors that play a role:

  • Weekly mileage over the past few months
  • Running history (did you start running in the last couple of years or have you been a lifelong runner or even athlete)
  • Age
  • Body composition
  • how much lifting/weight training you do
  • How much biking and running you are doing
  • What your definition of speed work is

The ‘On Coaching’ podcast just did an episode (episode 110) about whether athletes should focus speed first or endurance first. John Marcus and Steve Magnus (the two hosts who are coaches of collegiate teams and elite runners) have opposite approaches so it was interesting to hear them talk about it.

As for a couple question you asked…

  • Yes, speed work will increase your risk of injury (but so will running more miles)
  • After taking breaks from running, I’ll usually start to add some intensity after I’ve been been running at least 20 miles a week for a month. This might mean steady state, tempo, or 5k pace. I usually don’t do much stuff faster than open 5k pace unless I’m focusing on running races. (Full disclosure, was a middle distance runner in HS and college)
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When you have a cake

< look it up >

FTW!!

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I see a lot of people missing the reason for intensity in running.

It’s to put a different stress on your body to stimulate improvement.

If you run easy all of the time you stimulate muscles that you use for running easy. If you run more or doubles easy, you start stressing muscles that weren’t fatigued in the run from the day before or earlier run.

Threshold workouts stimulate muscles a different way, VO2max workouts stimulate differently too.

Every race from 5K to marathon is a product of your abilities at Threshold, VO2max, endurance and race execution.

Running easy all the time isn’t always going to stimulate all energy systems and one cycle of VO2max workouts (5 to 6 weeks of adaptation) will not be enough to make an athlete perform their best.

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When you have a cake

< look it up >

My first thought. Probably the best advice that will be found in this thread.

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When you stop making gains from mere aerobic workouts.

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When you have a cake

< look it up >

My first thought. Probably the best advice that will be found in this thread.

It’s truly not very helpful. What is his current/past health situation? For what event is he training? Why is he raising the question about speedwork in the first place?

Maybe he’s bored with running easy and wants to mix it up. Maybe he wants to run the 5th Ave mile in under 4 next year, or maximize his 5k time on as little mileage as possible. Maybe he’s relatively new to running and is genuinely interested in learning more. There are too many questions to ask and simply stating, “when your base is big enough to support it” doesn’t answer any of them.