Whats your definition of rich?

$100M+

I’ve had this discussion with Ultra High Net Worth Individuals (HNWIs) and they generally tell me they didn’t feel rich until they passed the $100M mark in net worth. A few are multi-billionaires and they don’t feel ‘richer’ after a certain point, it’s more about the comparison to other billionaires. When I hit the billionaire threshold, I’ll get back to the LR and let you know.

They can close restaurants for their use, get performers to their homes for birthdays, etc.

When I was a kid I remember Jed Clampett having $25 million in Mr. Drysdales’s bank. That’s kind of always been my definition of rich.

I love this. You’re not sure what’s “faulty” about it, then you state that you consider it merely as “beer money”.

I assume you’re being disengenous here. But just in case you were being sincere, I’ll clarify. I consider it “beer money” not because there’s anything wrong or faulty with the program. Just because I don’t need it. But many people claim it’s very useful to them. I prefer not to be a “limousine liberal” and assume that because I don’t need it, it doesn’t matter to anyone else. And I’m willing to be taxed to that effect.

The amount of friction involved in gov’t money transfers is very great. If you’re wealthy, then you should not be a beneficiary of a gov’t welfare system. You don’t need it and it adds to the friction to get it to you.

By “friction” you mean effciency? Sure, government programs can be inefficient. I’m reading that the administrative costs of SS are about 0.5% of payouts. Maybe that could be driven down the closer to the administrative costs of a low-cost 401(k), but it doesn’t sound that awful to me.

The fact that SS is going bankrupt is an indicia of its unworkability; not that it requires increased funding.

This sounds like a backwards argument. SS has been around since 1935 just fine. There are issues now because of the aging baby boomer population. Overall pretty easy to fix. “Bankrupt” is a bit of hyperbolic term designed to make people think it’ll “run out of money.” But really the worst case is a cutting benefits by about 25%, sometimes around 2034. I’d prefer to just fund it as intended rather than put the millions of Americans who paid into it their loves lives (and need it) through a 25% cut. Not everyone can be the beneficiary of your or my private largesse, as pious as that makes us feel.

Edit: Read in one place that the 0.5% is far lower than the “friction” of private annuities. No idea if that’s true. Could be cherry picking. Just first few hits of Google-fu. Which usually passes for this forum. :slight_smile:

Social security is hugely regressive due to the life expectancy gap by income.

I think they should overhaul it as a longevity hedge.

So lower income earners don’t get a cut - but higher income earners get a reduced payment in earlier years.

So if you qualify for 18k a year - you get 18k as long as you live. If you qualify for 28k per year you get only get say 22k for your first 5 years then it bumps up to the higher payout. If you qualify for 38k you get 22k for 5, then 32k for 5 and if you’re still alive 10 years after retirement you get your full amount. So first 5 year payments are capped and second 5 year payments are capped lower than the max payout.

So high earners are not getting 40k for 35 years. Since they should 1) be healthier based on data and more likely to work longer and 2) had more opportunities to save. But it will still help them hedge if they live longer than expected.

Social security is hugely regressive due to the life expectancy gap by income.

I think they should overhaul it as a longevity hedge.

Now there’s some real talk. Interesting thoughts. That’d at least damage two birds, if not kill them. The two birds being the regressive nature you talk about and the “problem” of ever-increasing life expectancy (COVID notwithstanding) - one of the root causes of Social Security’s funding issues. The usual suggested remedy of just raising the minimum benefit age is also somewhat regressive, forcing people who work hard, physical jobs to work longer than they otherwise would if they depend heavily on the income for retirement.

Whenever I see people clearly over 75 working retail jobs, I like to pretend it’s just an activity to get out of the house for a bit, and not because they need it. But it’s probably usually the latter.

I assume you’re being disengenous here. But just in case you were being sincere, I’ll clarify. I consider it “beer money” not because there’s anything wrong or faulty with the program. Just because I don’t need it.

“I don’t need it” is precisely how I took it. It’s dysfunctional that you’re getting a welfare check from the gov’t. You don’t need it.

But many people claim it’s very useful to them. I prefer not to be a “limousine liberal” and assume that because I don’t need it, it doesn’t matter to anyone else. And I’m willing to be taxed to that effect.:slight_smile:

“Useful to them” is not the standard that the gov’t should use. After all, who doesn’t have “use” for money that they get. If you’re using “useful” as synonymous with “need”, then OK. It’s a welfare system and should be distributed based on need. There are different definitions of “need” that the legislative process will hash out. Yet, that system would be better (and more honest) than the broken system we have now, which: a) deceives people into thinking that they are paying into something; and b) gives a welfare check to people that don’t need it.

This sounds like a backwards argument. SS has been around since 1935 just fine.:slight_smile:

The fact that people find “free” money from the gov’t “useful” or that some gov’t program transferring money from minority party to majority party from the gov’t has been around for a long time is no way to evaluate the success/failure of a gov’t program. See Thomas Jefferson’s quotes on 51% taking from 49%. If 51% of the population agree to take money from 49% since 1935, then that’s not a system to consider the merits of “just fine”.

There are issues now because of the aging baby boomer population. Overall pretty easy to fix.

There were always issues and there will always be issues. If it’s easy to fix, then we’d fix it.

“Bankrupt” is a bit of hyperbolic term designed to make people think it’ll “run out of money.” But really the worst case is a cutting benefits by about 25%, sometimes around 2034.

“Bankrupt” is a term from the private sector. It’s not “hyperbolic” as much as porting a term from a different system. Still, one definition of “bankrupt” is “unable to pay outstanding debts”. That’s true under the current system, which you acknowledge we’re on that path by your “cutting benefits by 25%” qualification. And, it’s not just the worst case scenario; it’s also the currently projected scenario.

I’d prefer to just fund it as intended …

If you “fund it as intended” and pay out as intended, then you’re on the projected path of “unable to pay outstanding debts” (whatever term you use).

… rather than put the millions of Americans who paid into it their loves lives …

In zero sense did “people pay into it”. That’s a lie that the Supreme Court put to rest. It’s a tax. If you paid into something, then you have a property claim to it. You have no property claim to it. If you paid into something, then you have a promissory balance to get it back somehow. That’s not true; same as the property illusion. Congress can change your distribution rate (including to $0) if it wishes.

… (and need it) through a 25% cut. Not everyone can be the beneficiary of your or my private largesse, as pious as that makes us feel.

I agree with this. That’s why it should be: a) changed to a general tax, which is an honest take on what it truly is; and b) changed to a distribution system to those who need it.

Social security is hugely regressive due to the life expectancy gap by income.

I think they should overhaul it as a longevity hedge.

So lower income earners don’t get a cut - but higher income earners get a reduced payment in earlier years.

So if you qualify for 18k a year - you get 18k as long as you live. If you qualify for 28k per year you get only get say 22k for your first 5 years then it bumps up to the higher payout. If you qualify for 38k you get 22k for 5, then 32k for 5 and if you’re still alive 10 years after retirement you get your full amount. So first 5 year payments are capped and second 5 year payments are capped lower than the max payout.

So high earners are not getting 40k for 35 years. Since they should 1) be healthier based on data and more likely to work longer and 2) had more opportunities to save. But it will still help them hedge if they live longer than expected.

I’m putting no energy into the merits of this plan (one way or the other). Yet, I appreciate very much an attempt at some rationale basis for distribution based on different factors of need (rather than “what you put into it”). Let’s have this discussion as a society, and soon.

Been away for awhile, I would randomly place 10M in net worth as the beginning of “don’t really worry about anything rich” (vs. merely well-off). There are certainly some folks who could never figure out ways to spend that amount, and others who would blow it in a handul of years. In my experience, knowing a whole bunch of wealthy folks in my area, ~10M is where folks really stop worrying about the cost of things.

Almost all of the “rich” people that I know continue to make a set of responsible choices that mirror all of the financial choices they made prior to becoming wealthy, so they generally live “within their means”. and their financial choices didn’t crazily veer off and become unsustainable as they become more successful. The “extreme miser” and “extreme profligate” are outliers.

The 1% thread got me wondering. I’ll give it a stab,

Never having to worry about where a meal is coming from, or where I am staying that night. Never having to worry if my car was going to get me somewhere. Knowing if I got in any kind of a situation, there was enough money to get me out. Never worrying about going to the Dr. or ER if someone needed it, never worrying about how to get medicine.

And maybe my definition is just a sad statement on America. But to me if you have all that, your rich.

I like your definition. I would add: waking up healthy, on the correct side of the grass.

Life will eventually punch everyone in the face…just to get your attention. The last two years were my hit, with a few friends and loved ones taken too early. Tomorrow is not guarenteed, and every day is a good day.

$100M+

I’ve had this discussion with Ultra High Net Worth Individuals (HNWIs) and they generally tell me they didn’t feel rich until they passed the $100M mark in net worth. A few are multi-billionaires and they don’t feel ‘richer’ after a certain point, it’s more about the comparison to other billionaires. When I hit the billionaire threshold, I’ll get back to the LR and let you know.

They can close restaurants for their use, get performers to their homes for birthdays, etc.

When I was a kid I remember Jed Clampett having $25 million in Mr. Drysdales’s bank. That’s kind of always been my definition of rich.

once again, let it be said, slowtwitch needs a “like” button

When none of your problems can be solved by simply having more money.

I think that is a more elegant way of saying what I was trying to say.

Thanks

To be honest, I think what we are actually talking about is freedom.

Modern capitalism emerges out of feudalism.

There exists in both systems the idea that one can buy their own freedom.

This is what I have always been after.

However…
Monotheism, feudalism, bureaucratic Scientific atheism, communism, capitalism - these are all totalitarian systems.

They do not acknowledge ANY permanent limits to their power over the individual.

The rich are often just as enslaved as the poor.

A lord living under a micro-managerial king
Is less free than a serf with an absentee and negligent lord.

The rebellious wage slave in modern capitalism, is more free than the entrepreneur who micro-manages every second of their own day.

So …

When we are clever…

We can temporarily use the power of of the “ism” in the pursuit of our own freedom.
A short truce is possible.

But our emancipation is always temporary.

Even the kings of old were not free. Most of the time having to worry about challenges to their power, being killed etc. Heavy is the head who wears the crown as they say.

Any sense of community seems to me to involve obligation to others. Freedom is only useful to a certain point

At least it’s answered in today’s NYT crossword

https://www.nytimes.com/crosswords/game/daily/2023/12/20
.

At least it’s answered in today’s NYT crossword

https://www.nytimes.com/...ame/daily/2023/12/20

https://64.media.tumblr.com/410b6e753df0f2fa29673029b0385219/67b475bf84f903ff-03/s540x810/4f46de817c6a56a9ec1d61abc3aaf4055ed34298.gifv
.

Been away for awhile, I would randomly place 10M in net worth as the beginning of “don’t really worry about anything rich” (vs. merely well-off). There are certainly some folks who could never figure out ways to spend that amount, and others who would blow it in a handul of years. In my experience, knowing a whole bunch of wealthy folks in my area, ~10M is where folks really stop worrying about the cost of things.

Almost all of the “rich” people that I know continue to make a set of responsible choices that mirror all of the financial choices they made prior to becoming wealthy.

I’d venture that 90% of the people with more than $10M got there through

  1. a steady nicely paying job (I’d say $200-300K )
  2. disciplined saving, with an employer match
  3. no medical disasters

I know quite a few people of that mold. It is an interesting irony that you point out. With out the responsible choices be ingrained, you don’t get rich, and thus when you are rich you don’t really “enjoy” it unless you shed some of those ingrained habits which is unlikely. So what good did the money do!