Whats your definition of rich?

The Coffee Shop
44

The 1% thread got me wondering. I’ll give it a stab,

Never having to worry about where a meal is coming from, or where I am staying that night. Never having to worry if my car was going to get me somewhere. Knowing if I got in any kind of a situation, there was enough money to get me out. Never worrying about going to the Dr. or ER if someone needed it, never worrying about how to get medicine.

And maybe my definition is just a sad statement on America. But to me if you have all that, your rich.

This global wealth comparison calculator helps reminds me how fortunate I am on a relative basis. Just owning a car is a huge luxury for many.

‘https://web.archive.org/...lrichlist.com/wealth’

A good buddy of mine grew up in East Germany. His dad once said " I have a refrigerator and a car, what else do I need?"

45

It’s a sliding scale. There’s no bright line that delineates poor - working - middle - upper etc. I tend to think of wealth and “rich” in terms of capital producing income independent of work. But of course, this implies the person occupies a certain social and economic strata. I have a bit of capital parked in various investment vehicles that in theory produces returns (and I guess in practice, but I don’t feel it … I had to check one account yesterday and it was up $700 for the day, which is about what I made at work yesterday also, but some of those dollars go directly into my pocket and the others don’t, at least not for a while) but I’m certainly not rich and depend on a bi-weekly paycheck, thus I’m a comfortable member of the working class. Sans that paycheck, things go downhill quickly.

I guess if I had to put a number on it, I would consider an income of $500k and assets of $3m rich. “Rich” is a huge playing field; poor, not so much. I mean, I’m mathematically far closer to Shohei Ohtani in “wealth” than Bill G. but am I really?

I think a huge benefit of wealth is access, which leads to more wealth and more acces. Money grants a certain degree of opportunity that really can’t be bought any other way. We collectively love the rags to riches story but it isn’t common, no matter what the plumber in the million dollar house down the street preaches.

46

I am not exactly sure, but somewhere around considering ownership a personal jet and not renting is somewhere getting close.

47

This.

Who is richer? Person with $30k of income after all taxes and such and lives off $10k or the person with $1M net income but has $999.999k of other expenses?

The person with $1M net income.

Next question!

48

This.

Who is richer? Person with $30k of income after all taxes and such and lives off $10k or the person with $1M net income but has $999.999k of other expenses?

The person with $1M net income.

Next question!

Well the Million in net income should be rich, and since they choose to spend all of it each year, doesn’t seem to disqualify them from being rich, just means they have no savings, and are living for today.

Why would spending $1million a year, not make you rich?

49

The 1% thread got me wondering. I’ll give it a stab,

Never having to worry about where a meal is coming from, or where I am staying that night. Never having to worry if my car was going to get me somewhere. Knowing if I got in any kind of a situation, there was enough money to get me out. Never worrying about going to the Dr. or ER if someone needed it, never worrying about how to get medicine.

And maybe my definition is just a sad statement on America. But to me if you have all that, your rich.

This global wealth comparison calculator helps reminds me how fortunate I am on a relative basis. Just owning a car is a huge luxury for many.

‘https://web.archive.org/...lrichlist.com/wealth’

A good buddy of mine grew up in East Germany. His dad once said " I have a refrigerator and a car, what else do I need?"

This one’s tough for me. While I look back at what my grandparents had as far as white goods, technology, and bills versus today you think one thing.

But then, isn’t it kind of a tactic to get people of lesser means to “imagine” they’ve got enough while those with more means hoard?

Of course the truly rich person will tell the poor person “comparison is the thief of joy”. It can be both. You can try to live better with what you have while also recognizing the thief is both comparison AND the truly rich person.

50

You can try to live better with what you have while also recognizing the thief is both comparison AND the truly rich person.

I think we have to separate happiness from wealth. They do not seem to correlate well. For example judging by the fact that antidepressant use goes up with income level. (though maybe largely because wealthy people can afford such things, but somehow I doubt that’s everything). I was shocked a while back at a campfire with a bunch of bros who seem totally normal and happy to me, and the talk turned to antidrepressants, and I was the only one not on them, sitting quietly while they all talked about dosages, etc.

51

It is hard to get data that are precisely apples to apples, but the top 1% have 21% of total US income and pay 24% of total taxes — so our overall tax system (not just income tax) is not highly progressive. The top 1% have 32% of total wealth — so the system is regressive from a wealth perspective.

These figures don’t look right, and I see that you got them from ITEP’s very flawed analysis. Lots of places on-line that point out ITEP’s terrible analysis. ITEP’s analysis cherry-picks certain taxes and ignores other HIGHLY progressive taxes. You note about the difficulty of “precisely apples to apples”. That’s especially hard when ITEP is cherry-picking to communicate a certain political viewpoint.

Objective tests are still the best and they state a unequivocally a very progressive tax system that in 2020, Top 1%'s share of Total Adjusted Gross Income was 22.2%, while Top 1%'s share of total income Taxes paid was 42.2%. That’s highly progressive.

My personal experience reflects this highly progressive system. I pay GOBS of taxes on many levels.

52

You can try to live better with what you have while also recognizing the thief is both comparison AND the truly rich person.

I think we have to separate happiness from wealth. They do not seem to correlate well. For example judging by the fact that antidepressant use goes up with income level. (though maybe largely because wealthy people can afford such things, but somehow I doubt that’s everything). I was shocked a while back at a campfire with a bunch of bros who seem totally normal and happy to me, and the talk turned to antidrepressants, and I was the only one not on them, sitting quietly while they all talked about dosages, etc.

With more wealth comes better access to healthcare. Someone working multiple jobs that don’t accrue enough hours to be on a health plan in the US nor really take time out of their schedule to chat with a therapist isn’t in the same space as someone making 4x more a year and has PTO and “flextime” where they can go see a therapist or doctor AND get their meds covered. It’s one group just having to suck it up or ignore it, and another having the luxury to do something about it.

The happiness part is also cultural. Our culture in the US is all about consumerism, rapid consumerism. And businesses you work for are designed to cater to that. But they’re now finding in a lot of “blue zone” parts of the world with longevity, it wasn’t necessarily eating a Mediterranean diet or blue corn or something…it was how the community in those places allowed people to feel valued or integral late into life. Not just washed up tired consumerist cogs ridden hard and put up wet to die in their lazyboy in the old person’s home.

In the US, IMO, it’s tough to try to participate in our consumerist culture and business culture in a way where you can both “get only enough to be taken care of” but also be of a different culture in terms of that happiness. The way pay and progression and duties at companies (and even small businesses) are structured in our country mean that by the time you no longer need to worry about certain things…other positive aspects of life might have disappeared. It’s a balancing act finding that “sweet spot”. By the time you’ve risen enough on one side, the other side is declining.

53

Because they are hoarding all of the income to tax.

In the past, it was called “saving” or “investing”. Now, it’s called “hoarding”. What do these “hoarders” get? Double taxation.

Yet they are paying taxes at a lower rate than has historically been the case on their last dollar.

Yes, a lower rate for that second level of taxes. So generous.

54

Because they are hoarding all of the income to tax.

In the past, it was called “saving” or “investing”. Now, it’s called “hoarding”. What do these “hoarders” get? Double taxation.

Yet they are paying taxes at a lower rate than has historically been the case on their last dollar.

Yes, a lower rate for that second level of taxes. So generous.

You seem happy. All that investing working well for you?

If you’re in the top 1% these days you are a hoarder. Your marginal dollar is not doing anything for you.

You have more than you will ever need - so maybe stop and do something more fulfilling with the rest of your life. You only have so much time on this planet.

55

You seem happy. All that investing working well for you?

Not sure how you can tell if I’m happy; yet, that investing is doing OK. Investing is risky and it doesn’t help that it’s being double-taxed. Still, it’s producing well for the benefit people in greater society, including real estate, greater technology, medicine, etc.

If you’re in the top 1% these days you are a hoarder.

Forgive me if this comes across as boasting, but I give away a LOT of money. Hoarding is exactly what I am against (Mt. 6:19-33). Being productive (and blessed) finances that giving.

Your marginal dollar is not doing anything for you.

  1. How is it not doing anything for me?
  2. Is “not doing anything for you” a justification to take it from me? That’s a strange way of justifying a progressive income taxation system. Take it from me (who is using the money efficiently and taking risks) to give it to others (who: a) didn’t earn it; and b) have not otherwise shown to be as productive and not otherwise as good about making good risk/reward decisions).

You have more than you will ever need …

Again:

  1. So, “more than I’ll ever need” is a strange rationale to take it from me. That’s the rationale that thieves use. They commit a logical contradiction: a) it’s the case that it’s not my money; and b) it’s not the case that it’s not my money.
  2. By productively investing it, I am creating wealth for others. By taking risk, I am able to take risks that others: a) aren’t able to take; and b) have not otherwise shown to be capable of considering.
  • so maybe stop and do something more fulfilling with the rest of your life. You only have so much time on this planet.

So says the sloth to the ant. (Prov. 6:6-11; Col. 3:23-24)

This is just the logical fallacy of begging the question. I find being productive very fulfilling. I’ve thought about retiring early and living off of the wealth. At this point, it doesn’t seem very fulfilling. Maybe, “tomorrow.”

56

This.

Who is richer? Person with $30k of income after all taxes and such and lives off $10k or the person with $1M net income but has $999.999k of other expenses?

The person with $1M net income.

Next question!

Well the Million in net income should be rich, and since they choose to spend all of it each year, doesn’t seem to disqualify them from being rich, just means they have no savings, and are living for today.

Why would spending $1million a year, not make you rich?

There’s the term that was invented in the last 20 years. HENRY. High earning not rich yet.

Make 200-500k income but very little wealth. The person making 1M but spending 0.999M isn’t rich, they are high earning. Rich sometimes means wealthy, meaning has assets. But Rich also sometimes (maybe usually) just means high earner.

So even investment gurus, who are trying to sell something, can’t agree and contradict themselves.

57

You seem happy. All that investing working well for you?

Not sure how you can tell if I’m happy; yet, that investing is doing OK. Investing is risky and it doesn’t help that it’s being double-taxed. Still, it’s producing well for the benefit people in greater society, including real estate, greater technology, medicine, etc.

If you’re in the top 1% these days you are a hoarder.

Forgive me if this comes across as boasting, but I give away a LOT of money. Hoarding is exactly what I am against (Mt. 6:19-33). Being productive (and blessed) finances that giving.

Your marginal dollar is not doing anything for you.

  1. How is it not doing anything for me?
  2. Is “not doing anything for you” a justification to take it from me? That’s a strange way of justifying a progressive income taxation system. Take it from me (who is using the money efficiently and taking risks) to give it to others (who: a) didn’t earn it; and b) have not otherwise shown to be as productive and not otherwise as good about making good risk/reward decisions).

You have more than you will ever need …

Again:

  1. So, “more than I’ll ever need” is a strange rationale to take it from me. That’s the rationale that thieves use. They commit a logical contradiction: a) it’s the case that it’s not my money; and b) it’s not the case that it’s not my money.
  2. By productively investing it, I am creating wealth for others. By taking risk, I am able to take risks that others: a) aren’t able to take; and b) have not otherwise shown to be capable of considering.
  • so maybe stop and do something more fulfilling with the rest of your life. You only have so much time on this planet.

So says the sloth to the ant. (Prov. 6:6-11; Col. 3:23-24)

This is just the logical fallacy of begging the question. I find being productive very fulfilling. I’ve thought about retiring early and living off of the wealth. At this point, it doesn’t seem very fulfilling. Maybe, “tomorrow.”

You do you- but quoting the Bible to justify being in the top 1% is pretty wacky. Like when the CEo of a company I worked for wore a Buddhist string bracelet and thought it gave him spiritual cred. But really it just made people think he was incredibly out of touch with reality.

Just remember - the only person you have to sleep with every night is yourself. Makes choices that make you happy to do so.

Oh and if you got into the 1% scraping money off sick poor people on basic necessities like healthcare and housing I hope you have insomnia and diarrhea. But that’s just me.

ETA - the point about your marginal dollar not doing anything for is more of a statement to take your smarts and time and invest them in something that does do something for you rather than creating more dollars you don’t need. Not that somebody should take them- but that with your resources you should apply them somewhere that has a return that creates something of value for you not just another $ that doesn’t make a difference to you. The world has lots of worthwhile causes.

58

Oh and if you got into the 1% scraping money off sick poor people on basic necessities like healthcare and housing I hope you have insomnia and diarrhea. But that’s just me.

The money I’ve made is working hard. I’m an attorney in the financial world. I mortgaged my future on risky ventures that paid off.

I invest in real estate and innovative healthcare ventures. Most/Many of those investments fail and that investment is totally lost. But, in order to get innovative healthcare, the system needs people to invest in those risky/high-failure-prone ventures.

Again, forgive the boasting … From that money (and beyond the tithe to my church, which you will probably think is wasted $$), I give to charities that serve immigrants, free women caught in prostitution lifestyles, support young mothers who choose to not abort their babies, other young mothers who just need a temporary break so that they don’t otherwise need to give their young children to the state/adoption, etc. I host/feed 30+ college students in my house 2x/month and each week for a Bible study. These students are not underprivileged, sure. But, they are people who are in an adult-transition phase and being in their lives and modeling what “adulting” looks like (outside of their parents) is–in my view–very important/impactful. To be in their lives and make a significant impact on them, it takes a lot more than merely $$. All of this is what you call “hoarding”.

A “cool story bro”: For many years, I worked for a financial company led by strong Christian men. I chided one of the owners for not knowing certain theological doctrine that I felt he should have known. His exasperated response: “, I give away hundreds of thousands of dollars each year. That takes a lot of work and time.” While I took this as a sort of challenge to emulate; you probably wish insomnia and diarrhea to him.

59

Again, forgive the boasting …

This is doubling down on the boasting! It’s advertising your piety in a mock display of contrition in addition to the following-shortly-after boasting segment.

I’m roasting in a lighthearted tone here. This is modern times. I enjoy over-the-top touchdown dances too. And virtue signalling is a good thing when backed by actual virtue! Good for you. Helping other people is great.

60

ETA - the point about your marginal dollar not doing anything for is more of a statement to take your smarts and time and invest them in something that does do something for you rather than creating more dollars you don’t need. Not that somebody should take them- but that with your resources you should apply them somewhere that has a return that creates something of value for you not just another $ that doesn’t make a difference to you. The world has lots of worthwhile causes.

I agree with this. See my post above about the college students. At our last meeting (for this semester) one of the students gave us some stitched saying, like “Thanks for all you do” or “Merry Christmas” (I can’t remember the words; I only remember the thought/time that went into it). She did this by hand. Someone doesn’t take the time/effort to do that unless you are making an impact in their lives. When their parents visit, the students almost always seek us out to introduce us (including Mrs. TriFloyd). That doesn’t happen unless we’re making an impact. The parents thank us. Parents don’t know who we are and what we’re doing unless the students are talking to their parents about what we do. Mother Theresa famously said, “Find your own Calcutta.” I don’t live in Calcutta; I live in a college town.

61

A “cool story bro”: For many years, I worked for a financial company led by strong Christian men. I chided one of the owners for not knowing certain theological doctrine that I felt he should have known. His exasperated response: “, I give away hundreds of thousands of dollars each year. That takes a lot of work and time.” While I took this as a sort of challenge to emulate; you probably wish insomnia and diarrhea to him.

Why don’t you qoute Matthew 19:24 to them?
Seems like the obvious response.

62

Translated from Croatian but I think it will make sense…
Rich
Richer
The richest
Doesn’t know what to do with money
They didn’t catch him yet
Now they can catch only his d… (that is, the person is untouchably rich criminal or politician which is sometimes the same)

63

You can try to live better with what you have while also recognizing the thief is both comparison AND the truly rich person.

I think we have to separate happiness from wealth. They do not seem to correlate well. For example judging by the fact that antidepressant use goes up with income level. (though maybe largely because wealthy people can afford such things, but somehow I doubt that’s everything). I was shocked a while back at a campfire with a bunch of bros who seem totally normal and happy to me, and the talk turned to antidrepressants, and I was the only one not on them, sitting quietly while they all talked about dosages, etc.

Rich people have anti-depressants. Poor people have booze, Oxy, and herion.