What's the point of aerobic intervals in swimming?

Triathlon Forum
1

I’m sure this must have been brought up before. What is the point of doing aerobic intervals in swimming?

Assuming you have a minimum amount of swimming fitness, why would you split a 1 hour swimming workouts in lots of sets of 100, 50 meters at aerobic pace.

Even if you were to use a lot of tools (pull buoy, paddle) is there any benefit in splitting them up in short repeats?
Why wouldn’t you do all your aerobic swims as relatively long sets (3km, 3x1km, 6x500m).

Is there any science that can clarify?

edit: aerobic in the sense of the equivalent of Zone 2 in Coggan zones.

2

Generally accepted wisdom is that most AOS swimmers swim like bags, and don’t do enough sessions to get good, so shorter intervals enable us to swim until tech breaks down and then regroup and go again.

3

I’ll let the swim coaches weigh in with more substantive answers, but my understanding is that shorter intervals allow you to hold your form better so that you get not only a fitness benefit but also a technique improvement.

4

Define “aerobic”.

5

Define “aerobic”.
The equivalent of Zone 2 in Coggan zones. Can talk pace for a runner but faster than jogging.
Slower than Ironman swim pace.
Something you can in theory hold for a long time.

6

Define “aerobic”.

possibly he means “endurance” pace; say the equivalent of zone 2 for cycling/running
.

7

From what I found (far for being an expert swimmer, but I’m always front pack swimmer in most events), all my fellow club friends are doing slow, long, technical sessions for a terrible Investment/return ratio.

Personally I consider that a complete waste of time.

I swim things like 2k sessions twice a week, consisting of 100 or 200m sets as fast as I can, 30minutes something workout, no warmup no cooldown.
You swim slow you stay slow. You swim fast you get fast.

I learned the hard way that its not working for running unfortunately : you run fast you get injured. Running slow can make you race fast.

8

From what I found (far for being an expert swimmer, but I’m always front pack swimmer in most events), all my fellow club friends are doing slow, long, technical sessions for a terrible Investment/return ratio.

Personally I consider that a complete waste of time.

I swim things like 2k sessions twice a week, consisting of 100 or 200m sets as fast as I can, 30minutes something workout, no warmup no cooldown.
You swim slow you stay slow. You swim fast you get fast.

I learned the hard way that its not working for running unfortunately : you run fast you get injured. Running slow can make you race fast.

I’ve learned from myself the hard way by actually doing it, that long swim sessions are actually as good if not better on return on investment than these famed short-aerobic interval sessions. I still do short intervals, but my best improving swim workout bar none are the long ones, preferably 5-6k (which I don’t do enough).

I spent 2 years swimming ‘fast’ like you describe - almost all 50s, 100s, 200s, all at fast paces for me. No magic speed boost or improved result compared to my overdistance training.

Lots of MOP triathletes doing exactly what you do - 2k sessions twice per week, often with a good triathlon swim squad, and they’re still stuck at MOP, and usually worse (because 4k/wk is paltry for even MOP triathletes hoping to improve.)

I think you’re making the extremely common error of someone with actual swim-talent (compared to a true MOP triathlete) assuming what they do will work for the masses of average-ability triathletes. For example, I can guarantee 100% that if you did the exact same long easy-effort swim with the same relative effort as those MOPers (you’d be obviously at a faster pace but same relative effort), you absolutely would not regress to near their MOP speeds. You’d stay very near your speed, and if you swam more than 4k/wk, I’d say odds would be high you’d even swim the 1500 race distance faster than you’re doing with your short-intervals of 4k/wk.

With regards to how most MOPers you see training seem to swim slow and with low effort - it’s largely because they don’t swim enough to even get themselves to a level where they can sustain a harder effort over distance. I’ve been exactly there as a prior BOPer - I couldn’t even look like I was swimming hard even if I tried to as i’d promptly start thrashing and sink. As a beginner, sure, I did almost all broken intervals like 25s, 50s, just to survive, but once I got to intermediate level, the longer swims were perfectly good yield, and overdistance swims at effort even higher yield for me.

If it were as easy as swimming stuff like hard 20 x 100yds 2x times a week to be in the FOP of triathlon swims, EVERYONE would be doing it. That said, I know one guy in person who swims 1x/wk 2-3k and nearly wins the swim every time in big WTC70.3 races, so if you’re lucky enough to be gifted, nearly anything will work.

9

I’m sure this must have been brought up before. What is the point of doing aerobic intervals in swimming?

Assuming you have a minimum amount of swimming fitness, why would you split a 1 hour swimming workouts in lots of sets of 100, 50 meters at aerobic pace.

Even if you were to use a lot of tools (pull buoy, paddle) is there any benefit in splitting them up in short repeats?
Why wouldn’t you do all your aerobic swims as relatively long sets (3km, 3x1km, 6x500m).

Is there any science that can clarify?

edit: aerobic in the sense of the equivalent of Zone 2 in Coggan zones.
I would think the main (perhaps only) benefit of breaking z2 swimming into 100s is that it would allow you to focus on improving technique and avoid swimming mileage with poor form and ingraining bad habits.

10

I understand what you say, you might be completely right.
I would like to try it a season to test if I can get better this way, however given that I try to optimize time spent training, I do not think that 2*2K a week is enough to give this as try.

11

I would think the main (perhaps only) benefit of breaking z2 swimming into 100s is that it would allow you to focus on improving technique and avoid swimming mileage with poor form and ingraining bad habits.

Honestly, I also think this is wayyyy overhyped, and an excuse for the true logistical reasons for doing short intervals.

I think most triathletes/swimmers can relate with me - you usually make the most improvement when you’re pushing your limits in swimming (or other endurance sports). Which means if I swim 1000, or even 1500 at a very hard, stiff pace for myself to the point my technique is breaking down in the last 200-400, but I’m still doing my best to keep it together and really focusing and putting my all into it - the next time around, when I hit that pain point, I’m going to have a way better chance at holding the correct form, longer.

The farrrr more common problem with triathletes is that they’ve been brainwashed so hard into thinking they should always swim with ‘perfect technique’ and thus they avoid going into that pain zone where technique really starts to break down, and they stop and rest. When they actually should usually be pushing deeper into that pain zone and fighting as hard as they can against that technique breakdown, as long as they can.

I’ll argue any day that you’ll get more improvement as a triathlete racing for 1500, that a set of 2 x 1000 done at a harder effort than a 20 x 100 done at an easier effort, will give you higher yield. For all except the most FFOP elite triathlon swimmers, it’s what you put into it that dictates what you’ll swim on race day, far and above over your set structure.

I’ll guarantee I can make any MOP-FOPish triathlete here faster come race day, if they could guarantee me that they’d build up to swimming 25-33% more weekly volume and pushing well into that pain zone on a regular basis, further than they currently go. Might be only a few seconds faster like in my case, whereas you might really question the yield per time/effort spent, but you’d get faster.

But it’s hugely unlikely that I can take that same swimmer, and say that just by switching their workouts from whatever they’re doing now, to 10 x 100 or 20 x 100 or 40 x 25s, etc. and doing the same overall effort, that they’ll actually improve without putting more overall effort into it. They have to put more effort into it, be it long intervals or short stuff.

(Lastly, this isn’t necessarily true for elite swimmers, especially pure swimmers who are doing much shorter events like racing the 100. That requires some very specialized training to gain the most minute incremental advantages. MOP and even FOPish triathlon swimmers aren’t even in this discussion - they haven’t built the cake on which to put icing on, to use the old analogy.)

12

This is a great thread, I am really interested in what the swim experts have to say.

It may be wrong to reach hard conclusions from n=1 personal anecdotes since it could be very individual - people more/less naturally talented and reacting differently to short/hard vs. long/easy stimulus.
One more thing to add to the discussion is the psychological aspect. Swimming is really boring and breaking it up may help some people get through it (while for others doing long interval may be psychologically easier).

13

I guess it depends on where you’re at. I spent a couple years doing aerobic swimming primarily with some fast intervals in each session, but not too many. And maybe one hard workout every couple weeks and my times never got much better, sometimes worse, and I’d occasionally blow up and have near panic attacks in the very cold races with a hard takeout.

Then I spent 2 weeks in a master group getting the crap kicked out of me trying to keep up with ex college swimmers in the pool and after that nothing phased me. My times did seem to improve, but it’s always hard to tell between races etc. What I can tell for sure is I’m not stressed at getting hammered, water splashed my mouth, cold water, etc. like I used to.

14

I guess it depends on where you’re at. I spent a couple years doing aerobic swimming primarily with some fast intervals in each session, but not too many. And maybe one hard workout every couple weeks and my times never got much better, sometimes worse, and I’d occasionally blow up and have near panic attacks in the very cold races with a hard takeout.

Then I spent 2 weeks in a master group getting the crap kicked out of me trying to keep up with ex college swimmers in the pool and after that nothing phased me. My times did seem to improve, but it’s always hard to tell between races etc. What I can tell for sure is I’m not stressed at getting hammered, water splashed my mouth, cold water, etc. like I used to.

I’ll bet it was the harder effort. If you’d busted tail chasing them on 500s or 1500s you would have also improved. Granted it’s a lot easier to chase on a 100 so logistically that would be easier.

I too swim a lot harder and faster in masters groups. So yes if I had the time logistically to always swim with a good masters group I’d improve more than on my own. Still not a huge bump for me though also very hard to tell.

15

The farrrr more common problem with triathletes is that they’ve been brainwashed so hard into thinking they should always swim with ‘perfect technique’ and thus they avoid going into that pain zone where technique really starts to break down, and they stop and rest. When they actually should usually be pushing deeper into that pain zone and fighting as hard as they can against that technique breakdown, as long as they can.

Your assessment of triathletes is different than mine. My experience with triathletes is that the most common problem is they show up to the pool 2-3 times a week, do a slow continuous swim, and give little thought to technique.

I’ll argue any day that you’ll get more improvement as a triathlete racing for 1500, that a set of 2 x 1000 done at a harder effort than a 20 x 100 done at an easier effort, will give you higher yield. For all except the most FFOP elite triathlon swimmers, it’s what you put into it that dictates what you’ll swim on race day, far and above over your set structure.

I’ll guarantee I can make any MOP-FOPish triathlete here faster come race day, if they could guarantee me that they’d build up to swimming 25-33% more weekly volume and pushing well into that pain zone on a regular basis, further than they currently go. Might be only a few seconds faster like in my case, whereas you might really question the yield per time/effort spent, but you’d get faster.

All you’re really saying here is that triathletes will get faster if they swim harder and increase their volume. I doubt many would disagree. I’d say an athlete is more likely to go into the pain zone on shorter intervals because no one likes swimming a hard 1k. But there’s still the question of technique. Our form deteriorates the longer we swim. So, all things equal, going hard in shorter intervals reinforces good technique more than long intervals.

I don’t think swimming is all that much different than running or cycling. In all the sports it’s best to do a mix of speeds and efforts. If you really prefer swimming long intervals (e.g., 1k) and you do some of them easy, some of them at tempo, and a few hard, then you’ll likely improve. But you certainly don’t have to swim that way, and my guess is that very few will (or do). The average triathlete training via long intervals will do it at a steady, endurance pace, which is not the most productive use of pool time.

16

Agree, I’m amazed people claim to improve their open water 1.9k or 3.8k by just doing short reps on borrowed time (catching your breath between intervals). I did that for a while thinking ‘“vo2max aerobic engine yeah boy” with e.g. 100s fast off 2min and quickly improved at 200 & 400m pool efforts - but not races. When you’re already breathing on every stroke to get the air in, training your IIa fibres to use even more oxygen isn’t going to help…

Volume isn’t sufficient, but it’s necessary

17

For the last few years my swimming training is like
1x week 4000km in one take
I only stop two times for 10s to drink
I see no point doing other things becouse my swimm time is 1.55min/100m no matter what i do
I am older so i just keep my curent fitnes
And yeah must say that i have a swiming background so i have good technique
No need to ne faster in swim
But thats just me. I dont say that this is the way ti go

18

Your assessment of triathletes is different than mine. My experience with triathletes is that the most common problem is they show up to the pool 2-3 times a week, do a slow continuous swim, and give little thought to technique.

I don’t think swimming is all that much different than running or cycling. In all the sports it’s best to do a mix of speeds and efforts. If you really prefer swimming long intervals (e.g., 1k) and you do some of them easy, some of them at tempo, and a few hard, then you’ll likely improve. But you certainly don’t have to swim that way, and my guess is that very few will (or do). The average triathlete training via long intervals will do it at a steady, endurance pace, which is not the most productive use of pool time.

I don’t think triathletes are lazy about swimming when they’re at the pool and in the water - it’s just that the typical non-gifted triathlete with no swim background, needs to put in a LOT more work overall with volume AND intensity before they can do a 10 x 100 session at the likes of which a FOP or similar swimmer expects.

If I’m swimming 2x/wk, less than 2k for each session, a hard 10 x 100 session would be nearly impossible for me to complete without fading. The only way I’d finish it would to be slow down so much that I’m almost back at that slow pace that I was doing even without the intervals.It would be more like me swimming 2:00/100 for 1000 compared to doing the 10 x 100s with 15sec rest at 1:55/100 pace when averaged out. My current self at 15k/wk and years of experience, would look at that 10 x 100 pace and could think 'man that dude is lazy, he’s not putting any effort into his 100s!" when in reality it’s just not even physically possible with that little training for me to go faster than that.

I also am sure you are misinterpreting how triathletes view swim technique. Triathletes, especially MOP and slower, obsess so hard about technique that it actually harms their training/performance. They’re so worried about swimming with ‘ideal’ technique that they’ll forgo the hard, bury-yourself, struggle through it with dying arms that are the ones that really make you better and faster (happens a lot at the triathlon masters swims I go do, mainly in the bottom half of the lanes - not so much in the fast lanes where people just hammer it.) It’s not the first 3 sets of awesome form we do in a 20 x 100 that make us faster and better - it’s the last 1 or 2 that we’re totally struggling in every department, but which we still put ourselves through so next time we can do it better. Ask any youth coach - we triathletes typically need to obsess less about form and just put in the hard work, just like the kids do, and then the form will come with gradual adjustments. (I’m not saying we’ll swim like the kids in a comp swim squad - those kids have talent by definition, or else they wouldn’t be there.)

Those triathletes whom you see who should be working on form, ARE actually working on it as best as they can in the context of their really limited training of <7k/wk. I’ll be most of them are thinking hard with every stroke ‘how can I adjust to make myself go faster’ - but that only gets you so far without busting tail and swimming enough volume to support it. They’re just not fast enough to make it look that way to a faster, more experience swimmer like yourself, or even me.

19

Perhaps the last place you should be asking for swim advice is from a bunch of triathletes.

20

I’m a life long swimmer (swam long before I became a triathlete). I do shorter distances with a variety of paces and strokes on intervals because it’s fun and interesting. If a coach asked me to swim a 2k straight, I’d rather just skip the swim or do something entirely different because of the boredom.

Also, I find there’s a lot of benefit to doing different speeds/efforts in a variety of sets. Helps you understand your swim efforts and gearing. Also uses your muscles differently.