i don’t want to hijack the other thread too much, but this is a question i’ve been meaning to ask for a while. i seems a great deal of the ‘medicare/social security/etc’ discussion revolves around tax rates, and many argue that people in europe/canada pay higher taxes in exchange for these benefits.
by way of background, i’m from canada. my brother lived and worked in virginia for 2 yrs, and was always amazed by his colleagues’ complaints about taxes, and the extent to which it was a huge election issue. he was amazed because the tax rates seemed so low already, but people were positively phobic about paying any more, and often rabid about paying much less. but then it seemed obvious to him that people were getting less from their government.
so: what are the common reasons for people not wanting to pay higher taxes in exchange for more social services? is it a mistrust of government and their ability to prioritize budgets/spend your money? is it a belief that if one works hard to earn money, one should be able to keep it? is it a belief in the ideals of competition as applied to socio-economic sphere? or, would you be happy paying more taxes if it meant something like free tuition, health care, etc etc? if so, what benefits and how muxh tax?
This thread is going to become a mess in a hurry, but I’ll try to throw a thought out there before it does and then let the wolves take over.
Basically, in my opinion the gov’t is horribly inefficient in providing any type of services and I can go out and purchase them myself for less than the gov’t would be able to get them. Therefore, I’d have to pay more in taxes to get the social services than I would if I were to purchase them in a free market.
Also Americans, in general, are much more capatalistic and less socialistic which is another reason you don’t see overwhelming demand for gov’t provided healthcare, tuition, etc, etc.
Yeah most people can build their own highways, national parks, universities, hospitals, bridges, etc much more efficiently than the government. We can police and defend ourselves better as individuals, we can out out fires better as individuals, we can feed ourselves better as individuals…I got 3 tomatoes off my plants already this year.
Even ants and termites have worked it out that collective societies function more efficiently than a disorganized melee of individuals. America will work it out one day and when it does look out world because then we truly will become a great super power.
Effeciency. For the most part we get very little “Bang for our buck” with social programs. Governments inherant largeness, in most cases, has so many levels of beuracracy that mere pennies on the dollar are used for the actual purpose it’s earmarked for. IOW if I gave 1 dollar to my neighbor because they needed it, they would get one dollar, or very near one dollar, to spend for whatever they need. The dollar I give via taxes is slowly chpped away until that same neighbor only gets 10 cents or so. (Note: I have no idea what the actual numbers are.)
Social engineering - Simply stated people are different and have different wants and needs. A single 20 something male does not want or need the same medical plan, social services or various other services as a married 40 something with 2 kids. In conjunction with Point one it’s easy to see how an individual is far better equiped to make these desicions and can do so more effeciently than the government.
Personal freedom - Taking my money and forcing me to take various services is plainly and simply invasion of my personal freedom. It is my desicion whether I should get health insurance, save for retirement or have children. By the same token it is my responsbility to suffer the consequences of those choices.
IMHO the governement has so far outstepped it’s bounds of operation that I dare say we will never “Reign it back in”.
Services such as “free tuition, health care,” are already provided via “taxes” and are showing to be miserable failures. Lower level education is provided for the public via taxes and for the most part, with few exceptions, is inferior in quality but superior in cost than there private counterparts. I fail to see how we can expect for “higher education” to follow a different path if we can’t succeed in doing so with primary education.
Health care IS provided. Kid Care, Medicare, Medicade, SSI Disability and free visits to the emergency for the uninsured and even illegal immigrants. Again I fail to see how a “universal” plan using the same system will better the situation.
As is the case in most systems we don’t need more government we need more self reliance and bit less government.
Having several doctors in my family more than one has blamed a large part of medical cost not on malpractice or insurance or any of the like but paperwork that must be filled out to satisfy government regulations. If memory serves it was once quoted to me that for every hour of patient doctor interface 10hrs of paperwork was generated…but I digress.
I love this train of thought…conservatives sayingwe need to rein in Government spending…and then touting George Bush as their guy! HA HA HA he spends like a teenage girl at the mall with daddy’s gold card.
Are you opposed to the trillions we spend on our very inefficient military too? and on unnecessary wars???
Conservatives only point at social programs and conveniently forget that the biggest beneficiaries of government “welfare” are farmers, big business and the military.
then touting George Bush as their guy! HA HA HA he spends like a teenage girl at the mall with daddy’s gold card.
Boy, you have this unfortunate tendency to forget about the other side of that sword. How do you keep stocked up on band-aids?
On the one hand, you think the government should be spending lots more money on just about everything, and when Bush does, you slam him for it.
Conservatives only point at social programs and conveniently forget that the biggest beneficiaries of government “welfare” are farmers, big business and the military.
That’s true, except for your absurd inclusion of the military.
Why is it absurd. Arms manufacturers and defense contractors in this country get more of our tax dollars than just about anyone. Of course they should be included.
**Arms manufacturers and defense contractors in this country get more of our tax dollars than just about anyone. Of course they should be included. **
Arms manufacturers and defense contractors are not the military. They’re properly included under big business. Obviously. (Aren’t you another one of our lawyers? You guys seem to be having a hard time with obvious and clear distinctions lately.)
"Yeah most people can build their own highways, national parks, universities, hospitals, bridges, etc much more efficiently than the government. We can police and defend ourselves better as individuals, we can out out fires better as individuals, we can feed ourselves better as individuals…I got 3 tomatoes off my plants already this year. "
Funny, I thought the original post was talking about healthcare, tuition, etc. Leave it to you to take a post and go off on a completely different tangent that has nothing to do with the original thought. Not really surprised though.
Fourthly assuming I’m against cutting military spending or corporate welfare.
Fifthly seriously inflating the military budget…
To answer your only worthwhile question “Are you opposed to the trillions we spend on our very inefficient military too?”
First 2005 estimated total national defense budget is 450,586 millions. Only half a trillion. And yes I woudl certainly be for cutting the budget. Frankly I think we could make some fairly simply changes in policy as well as procurement practices and save significant money. I’m of teh mindset that no system is a sacred cow and nearly all can be improved.
so it seems like a big issue here is what you want to trust the government to spend your money on for you, verus what you’d rather be able to spend it on yourself.
a thought: one take on the ‘bigger government’ argument (via my sister) was that being taxed more is simply more convenient than paying for everything privately. can you imagine getting bills for everything from garbage collection to national parks to national defence?
the flipside - and we’ve been dealing with this a great deal in canada lately - is when governments are shown to be corrupt (we’ve had a spate of ‘sponsorship’ scandals). then, i question where my actual dollars are going - not just to programs i dislike but into literally unlawful activity.
so: how about in sweden, where the income taxes are high, but every year on your return, the government reports exactly how much they collected, and what they spent it on. that, to me, would defintely ease the sting of paying high taxes, AND would make for a much better-informed electorate at the same time. i’d love for this to happen here.
Why is it absurd. Arms manufacturers and defense contractors in this country get more of our tax dollars than just about anyone. Of course they should be included.
It stands to reason when our country spends a great deal of it’s money on its military wouldn’t that transfer to the highest amount paid out to defense contractors? That’s a no brainer. Are you in favor of the government getting into arms and weapons manufacture as well?
His post does certainly bring up a different twist to the original though. The question then becomes “What do you think should be paid for with taxes”?
For me the necessicties is a fairly short list…ok real short.
National Defense.
After that I think we can start to discuss whether part or all of the system should be privitized. This does not mean I believe it should be just that I see possibilities for it to be.
Still not dealing with personal freedom and or ineffeciency.
For me it;s not a matter of “Trust” as nearly any organization is suceptible to corruption, private or government.
Let’s say 90% of the people say we want “X”, but “X” does not fit me or do what I want it to do. Should I forced to take “X”? The end result will be that I will likely pay more for “X” than had I purchased it myself and I get stuck with something I don’t want.
The freemarket has a way of providing pretty much everything a person wants, supply and demand. Typically the price is brought down by competition…which the government has none.
Your point of “Reciveing all these bills” is well taken but I believe a bit “unfounded”. How much do you purchase that is not government provided vs provided by government? Are you overwhelmed by the bills? How much of government usage do you get bills for anyway, Property taxes, Utility taxes (inluded in you phone, gas, electric), motor vehicle sticker, liscense etc etc.
“Even ants and termites have worked it out that collective societies function more efficiently than a disorganized melee of individuals.”
Just what I want out of life, to be a worker ant who is born, lives, and dies in the same situation. I think those types of societies have been tried already. Isn’t it called Communism and the Soviet Union was so successful wasn’t it?
I love this train of thought…conservatives sayingwe need to rein in Government spending…and then touting George Bush as their guy! HA HA HA he spends like a teenage girl at the mall with daddy’s gold card.
Are you opposed to the trillions we spend on our very inefficient military too? and on unnecessary wars???
Conservatives only point at social programs and conveniently forget that the biggest beneficiaries of government “welfare” are farmers, big business and the military.
Please don’t ever confuse this president and his spending with true conservatives. I support much of what he does, but your “teenage girl at the mall” analogy is a good one. I may replace my typical “drunken sailor” rant with that. Thanks.
As for the last part, by far the largest part of our budget this year is Social Security at $515B. Defense is next at $443B, followed by Medicare at $290B (prior to drug coverage becoming effective) and Medicaid at $194B. Altogether, entitlements, i.e. social programs, make up 54% of federal spending. Some of us think that’s more than enough.