In a recent post one you replied concerning weight lifting and leg strength something to the effect of “you already have the strength to turn over a higher gear but how long you can continue to do it is more important”. Basically, he was saying cardiovascular fitness was more important than leg strength. This got me thinking about how athletes balance riding and lifting. If it was all about strength, steroids would be the drug of they abuse versus EPO right???I guess it comes down to what the top people in the field do. What are the tour guys doing when it comes to lifting weights? I thought I read that various teams still do things very differently when it comes to weight training.
Um, I have a coupla thoughts on this. One, what the top guys in the tour do might not be best for “us”. “We” aren’t the top guys in the tour. Two, it’s energy utilization that is most important…not just Cardiac output, not just leg strength, although you need enough of each to be good. It’s a conglomeration of mitochondrial activity, oxygen delivery, waste removal, energy substrate availability, lactic acid buffering capability, electrolyte balance, heat generation/dissipation, and even a mental aspect, all working together to determine your function at that moment.
mainetriguy and Titan
Isn’t this called muscular endurance? Or are you guys talking about something else?
jaretj
Just look at Tyler Hamilton. He’s one of the best TTers in the world, yet I can put out more Watts than can he, and I’m not a very good sprinter. Many people on this forum are much stronger than Tyler, but not a one can maintain that power for the duration he does.
Which one is more important? Whichever one is your limiter.
It is called muscular endurance but I guess its just too complex to break it down into stronger legs versus stronger cardio output. As far as what the top guys do…do they lift weights or dont they?
There is a video of lance and his crew on the discovery web site and it shows them working out in the gym doing leg presses and such. Some of the really fast guys that I know all incorporate squats into their routine. I stoped working out last year and I got weaker on the bike, Ive since got back into the gym and my strength is comming back and I feel much stronger on the bike.
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jhendric wrote: Which one is more important? Whichever one is your limiter.
Better answer than mine!
I guess to get even better, we could say, “which ever systems are your current limiters”.
Bobby Julich has a weight room in his house, including a hip sled. I’d speculate that many top cyclists lift weights.
Finding your limiter is the problem. As Titan said “It’s a conglomeration of mitochondrial activity, oxygen delivery, waste removal, energy substrate availability, lactic acid buffering capability, electrolyte balance, heat generation/dissipation, and even a mental aspect”…figure that out and you are good to go…fast.
It is definitely cardiac output. I can bet you that there are lots of guys on this forum that have more brute leg strength than Lance. The force required to turn the pedals through one pedal stroke at even 500 W is pretty low. Just do the math
F = Power*Time/distance
Using a 500 W output, 90 RPM (or 60/90 seconds) and 0.175 m (175 mm), the force is only an average of 58 Newtons applied continuously over 1 rev. No big deal. Doing it over 90 revs in a minute and your heart can’t keep up.
Back when I was a full-time rock climber, there were 2 schools of thought which tie quite nicely into this discussion:
- Get powerful enough and harder efforts won’t feel as hard and therefore won’t tire you as quickly.
- Get tons of endurance and wind up with the same result.
However, the sticking point was that, if you don’t have enough power to execute a single difficult move, then enduring anything that comes afterwards is a non-issue.
My answer above about which is more important was intended to be taken seriously. Whichever is your limiter is more important (because you should spend time improving it). Identifying which one is your limiter is not rocket science, and you don’t need a PhD in cellular biology to figure it out. Are you better at all-out efforts or long efforts? That’s about as complicated as it needs to get.
I think you’re over-simplifying it (in a complicated way). An inability to maintain high wattage for a period of time could be due either to being limited by your cardiovascular or muscular system. If you’re very strong muscularly, then your limiter is probably cardiovascular. If you’re very strong cardiovascularly, then the limiter is probably muscular.
My training partner is very strong muscularly, but not as strong cardiovascularly. I’m the exact opposite. When we do climbs together, he says his heart/lungs give out long before his legs. For me, it’s the exact opposite. However, we complete our climbing races within seconds of each other every time.
Just look at Tyler Hamilton. He’s one of the best TTers in the world, yet I can put out more Watts than can he, and I’m not a very good sprinter. Many people on this forum are much stronger than Tyler, but not a one can maintain that power for the duration he does.
That I have a very hard time believing. He is not only a TT’er but he is also a formidable bike racer. Perhaps there are people on here that are sprinters and may be able to put out more power for 10 seconds (maybe), but not for a longer duration than that.
"That I have a very hard time believing. He is not only a TT’er but he is also a formidable bike racer. Perhaps there are people on here that are sprinters and may be able to put out more power for 10 seconds (maybe), but not for a longer duration than that. "
Actually, Hamilton and Boardman had this joke between them: they would try to break 1000W in a sprint, and neither could do it. I have hit over 1100W, and I am not particularly strong.
I mean, come on. Look at him. He, and most pro cyclists, are scrawny little s****. If it was all about raw power, then power lifters would be great TTers. How about that! They’re not. On the track, it matters. On the road, it doesn’t.
I personally place full responsibility on the mitochondria. I’ve even taken to yelling at them to “pick it up” when climbing long hills. They’re picky little bastards though and usually end up with the last laugh…
Seriously though, I think very little has to do with pure strength. Maybe for track cyclists. I have very strong legs. Paid for school with strong legs. Have always thought that I’d make a hell of a sprint track cyclist due to genetics that have given me huge thighs proportionate to the rest of me… (Really kills me as a rock climber though…) But I get smoked on the bike by people with less “strength” but better endurance. Really pisses me off sometimes. Any endurance sport seems to be about metabolism (VO2, lactate, etc.) far more than strength from what I know.
Lehmkuhler
"That I have a very hard time believing. He is not only a TT’er but he is also a formidable bike racer. Perhaps there are people on here that are sprinters and may be able to put out more power for 10 seconds (maybe), but not for a longer duration than that. "
Actually, Hamilton and Boardman had this joke between them: they would try to break 1000W in a sprint, and neither could do it. I have hit over 1100W, and I am not particularly strong.
I mean, come on. Look at him. He, and most pro cyclists, are scrawny little s****. If it was all about raw power, then power lifters would be great TTers. How about that! They’re not. On the track, it matters. On the road, it doesn’t.
Interesting. I am going to see out of interest how many watts I can output on the Computrainer. There would certainly be no problems cracking walnuts between your thighs with that strength.
For those of you who think strength is not the limiter…I’ll compare myself, MOP 36 year old male, with any of the elite women: My 112 mile power: ~230W, theirs ~190W. Now, do you believe that my cardiovascular system is better than theirs…I highly doubt it. I’m pretty sure I"m stronger than them though. The weight difference makes them faster than me, proving my limiter is weight, but that is a different subject.
Similarly, when I am tooling along at 140bmp, I am far below my maximum cardiac output. If I really needed more oxygen delivery to my legs, my heart and lungs are very capable of delivering it. At the end of 112 when I am getting tired, my heart rate is still the same as at the beginning, lack of oxygen is not the problem.
If Tyler can’t hit 1000W, it just means that his muscles are trained for slow twitch response and his phosphogen system is not as strong relatively, and maybe that blood doping doesn’t help sprinters much :-). I’ll bet he can hold 500W, which takes considerable strength, for longer than anyone on this board (I’d wager 20 minutes or so).
At the end of 112 when I am getting tired, my heart rate is still the same as at the beginning, lack of oxygen is not the problem.
I’ll bet he can hold 500W, which takes considerable strength, for longer than anyone on this board (I’d wager 20 minutes or so).
Oops, didn’t say much with this the first time.
In both cases you are describing the limiter as muscular endurance, not strength. Holding 500 watts isn’t about strength, achieving 500 watts is the only role that strength plays, keeping it there is endurance.
Lehmkuhler
apart from in a few odd cases (e.g., frail old lady) strength is not a limiting factor in endurance cycling performance. elite cyclists are in general no stronger than age, gender, mass matched sedentary subjects. Often elite cyclists may well be weaker than sedentary subjects due to the increase in aerobic machinery replacing contractile proteins.
during ECP the forces required are actually very low to moderate such that (virtually) anyone can generate the forces needed during ECP. As KLehner and someone else alluded to it is the ability to keep generating those forces which are difficult and this is a metabolic and cardiovascular issue which can only be trained on the bike (in trained cyclists). In untrained cyclists or low fitness people any exercise (including weights) will improve cycling performance.
I don’t know Hamilton’s, but Boardman’s peak power (i.e., sprint) was pathetically low, such that most anyone could sprint faster than him.
Increasing strength for ECP it is possible/likely that it is either a waste of time or detrimental to performance. Strength can be gained either by increasing muscle cross sectional area (resulting in a decrease in mitochondrial and capillary density, and you weight more) or by an increase in neuromuscular adaptations (these would only be specific to the joint angle and velocity at which they are trained). It is likely that by increasing muscle CSA you will be able to sprint faster (e.g., look at a track sprinter), however for the road, sprint training will also increase your peak power. (obviously a track sprinter etc will need to do weights).
ric