A little background:
I have been running exclusively in Hoka’s Clifton for the last 7 or so years.
As a result (or consequence) of a number of lower leg / foot injuries (tibial stress fracture, high hamstring tend., achilles tendonopathy) that date back about 7-8 years I ended up in the Hoka Clifton with an orthotic (adds 4mm drop) in which I have been running exclusively since Gen 2 (to the 7), training and racing. I am completely healed up, injury free for about 3 years now.
I run 15-30 miles/wk (depending on where I am in my training). My threshold pace is 8:30 min/mile. 6’-2", 175lbs. 50+ AG.
For races: I do 4-6 olympic distance races and 2-3 HIMs/yr.
When my last pair of Clifton 7s recently were up for replacement I ended up with the Hoka Mach 4 which I love after the first few runs.
Now with an eye on future injury prevention and general strengthening of the lower leg / foot chain I want to start back a little rotation like I used to do pre-injury. Back then I would rotate between a Brooks Glycerine or Asics Gel Nimbus. A lot has happened in shoe development (as frequently reported and reviewed here by Dan et al). A goal could be to eventually lose the orthotic (not firm on that).
So now with that information what shoe would you recommend that is different from the Mach 4 to trigger some adaptation but close enough to the Mach 4 in the important metrics like drop, cushion, support, etc?
I also love the endorphin speed, probably my favorite shoe. That being said, it is moderately aggressive and i don’t like going “slower” speeds in it (+8min/mile). Plus it has a similar functionality to the Mach.
I would suggest the Asics Novablast. Its a daily trainer so should help the health of your legs, but it has some pop and bounce to it. I’m trying a different daily trainer now, but after this pair I’m going back to the Novablast.
Edit: Novablast 2 is very similar to the 1, but with a better heel pocket.
Novablast and Endorphin Sepeed are both great recommendations. I have both of them in my current rotation.
Imo, the Speed feels great at any speed, which for me ranges from 5:30-7:30/mi. I can’t think of a single thing wrong with the shoe. If I could only own one pair for racing, speed workouts, daily, and long runs, this would 100% be it.
The Novablast is great and v2 has improved over that. Highly cushioned without the dead feeling of Hokas. V2 is also more stable than v1. Stack height is more than most, if not all, Hokas, too.
Both of these are universally lauded by shoe reviewers.
I’ll pile on with the group recommending the Endorphin Speed also. Incredible shoe that just feels better the more you run in it and is the right balance of cushion and weight. As you have had concerns with stability, my opinion is that plate in the speed helps quite a bit in that regard, as do many of the plates. The Speed’s nylon plate is also a bit more forgiving than a carbon plate which can be harsh to some.
Another Mach 4 and Endorphin Speed user here. I have two pairs of the Mach 4’s that see the bulk of my miles, and the Endorphin Speed get used for races and faster tempo work. Great shoes, both of them.
My current rotation is Hoka Rincons for easy runs and Endorphin Speeds for anything faster. The speeds are great shoes. They are my favorite running shoes ever.
The shoe rotation is not really for creating different adaptations, it’s for picking the right tool for that days session. Quick tempo or track intervals and something like endorphin speed comes into its own, for long or recovery runs something with a bit of extra cushioning may help (e.g. Clifton or Bondi). So it really depends what type of training you plan to do - the Mach 4 is a bit of an all rounder so another pair might not even be that necessary.
The fact that you’ve had a number of lower limb injuries over quite a long period and then have had 3 years injury free with Clifton’s it’s really hard to not to advise you to stick with them, and then use the Mach 4s the day you want something a bit more speedy (although it’s not a huge leap from Clifton to Mach 4 as it would be to say the endorphin speed). If it’s not broke don’t try and fix it!
Take any advice (including mine) with a pinch of salt as shoes can be quite individual, for example the novablast recommended in this thread are loved by many, but also hated by some that find them unstable.
The shoe rotation is not really for creating different adaptations, it’s for picking the right tool for that days session. Quick tempo or track intervals and something like endorphin speed comes into its own, for long or recovery runs something with a bit of extra cushioning may help (e.g. Clifton or Bondi). So it really depends what type of training you plan to do - the Mach 4 is a bit of an all rounder so another pair might not even be that necessary.
The fact that you’ve had a number of lower limb injuries over quite a long period and then have had 3 years injury free with Clifton’s it’s really hard to not to advise you to stick with them, and then use the Mach 4s the day you want something a bit more speedy (although it’s not a huge leap from Clifton to Mach 4 as it would be to say the endorphin speed). If it’s not broke don’t try and fix it!
Take any advice (including mine) with a pinch of salt as shoes can be quite individual, for example the novablast recommended in this thread are loved by many, but also hated by some that find them unstable.
This is what I was thinking as well.
OP can you clarify what you are trying to do with the shoe? The Mach 4 is a good all arounder, so if you want something with a little more “pop” look into the endorphin speed or even endorphin pro. I feel like the Novablast or Novablast 2 are going to be very, very similar to the Mach 4 so really no need to buy them if you’re happy with the Mach 4. The Nike Invincible are a good option for babying the legs if you just want something to plod along in. The New Balance Fresh Foam More V3 also comes to mind for a max cushion, plod along shoe.
Help me understand what you’re trying to do with this new shoe?
Since you’re at effectively 8mm with the orthotic do you want more or less drop?
More or less cushion?
Snappier/speedier or more plush? (not saying you can’t have both in 1 shoe yet the more descriptive of what you want the better we can help you)
day in day out type shoe or run specific shoe? (ie long run shoe, a track shoe, a road tempo/occasional track shoe, a day in day out , some weird idea type shoe? (I deal w/ a lot of runners fitting them in shoes from WC to about to go out on their 1st run)
More rebound than the Mach’s/less rebound (aka how springy do you want the shoe?)
I honestly was always of the opinion that a shoe rotation is not only to pick the shoe that best fits the kind of training (slow, long, tempo) of the day but to also give the foot a different bed to adapt to and to strengthen muscles in an all so slightly different way and thus become stronger / more resilient. This study seems to support this. But you find references to that theory at different places also e.g. Runners World.
That’s what I had in mind when I started the post, I was really looking for a shoe with a very similar spec to the Mach 4 but from a different brand. If the above theory is not valid however I might be misguided with that idea of a shoe.
To answer your very good questions: Q: Since you’re at effectively 8mm with the orthotic do you want more or less drop? A: Same or less. Less because there seem to be more shoes in the 4-5mm drop these days. Q: More or less cushion? A: I feel with the Mach 4 (from the Clifton) I went with slightly less cushion, or it certainly feels firmer.
The firmer feel is good it feels snappier what I like (a lot - after so many years in the Clifton) Q: Snappier/speedier or more plush? A: Snappier (see #2 above). The plush I had with the Clifton. The snappiness (is that a word?) of the Mach 4 reminded me of how a faster shoe can feel
What crossed my mind also is to get another Clifton for my LSD days and make a Clifton/Mach rotation.
One other motivation is that I might gradually want to lose the orthotics for reasons of price ($150 per) but more so to just not be dependent on it and having to buy orthotics for the rest of my (running) life for what is really a healthy foot (again).
This should however not happen with a lower drop as I believe that is what caused my Achilles injury back then. So kind of fixed on the 8mm drop with or without orthotics.
I hope that all makes sense.
Cheers,
Mick
Help me understand what you’re trying to do with this new shoe?
Since you’re at effectively 8mm with the orthotic do you want more or less drop?
More or less cushion?
Snappier/speedier or more plush? (not saying you can’t have both in 1 shoe yet the more descriptive of what you want the better we can help you)
day in day out type shoe or run specific shoe? (ie long run shoe, a track shoe, a road tempo/occasional track shoe, a day in day out , some weird idea type shoe? (I deal w/ a lot of runners fitting them in shoes from WC to about to go out on their 1st run)
More rebound than the Mach’s/less rebound (aka how springy do you want the shoe?)
Off the top of my head, similar to the Mach maybe more cushioning maybe less but in that lighter weight, less cushioned or more cushioned but snappy yet still in that Mach 4 profile: (although there may be some overlap between lists
Kinvara, Endorphin speed, pro maybe the shift
NB 1080 maybe the tempo
Asics Noosa Tri, Novablast
Hoka Rincon, Clifton
Brooks Launch
adidas Boston
mizuno wave rider (although 12mm stack)
for a clifton like shoe
clifton, rincon
NB tempo
Saucony endorphin shift, speed
Nike infinity run flyknit (10mm drop)
Wave rider (12mm drop)
Thanks, Brian and everyone for chiming in. Right what I was looking for.
Narrows down the options and let’s me look at the right shoes. I will go out and try a bunch.
If you go to your local running store tell them what you’re thinking about use for the shoe, how it slots into your mix, ask questions if you have them. They’ll probably have some questions for you.
Give them the why you like/ dislike the shoe you’re trying on. That will help them pick shoes off the wall that will be more tailored to what you’re looking for.
It’s a customer driven process, but in order for it to be most successful, the customer needs to be descriptive.