What Is The Optimum Q-Factor?

Hello All,

What is the optimum Q-Factor or stance for a bicycle?

We can adjust our hand positions with bars the move fore and aft and up and down.

We can adjust our seat position the same way.

It appears that Q-factor (non adjustable) is determined mainly by tradition, which was determined by the engineering and material capabilities at the time the standard was established, many years ago.

Now that can be a good thing in that it creates a standard for different brand cranks and other parts to be switched between different bikes.

It also means that as engineering and material capabilities improve there is a built in resistance to change.

Back to the original question, what is optimum? I watched people running and walking on the treadmill for foot placement.

Our natural running foot position seems to be very close to the centerline of our direction of travel with our shoes or feet just missing the opposing foot or leg during the stride.

Natural running and walking foot placement has evolved over thousands of years and probably has some validity as to optimum placement.

Bicycle stance or Q-Factor is determined by the machine not the body and is too wide for best power and non injury.

Ideally Q-Factor would mimic running stance, that is, a very narrow foot placement. Without a wind tunnel test - intuition determines that this would also improve drag by reducing frontal area.

We compensate somewhat for this ‘too wide’ Q-Factor by rocking the bicycle from side to side when climbing or sprinting out of the saddle to improve the hip to foot line. (and to add some power from our arms and torso)

I am thinking of ways to minimize or eliminate the bottom bracket width and locate my feet close together for more power, rather than splayed apart as at present.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Neal

I am a big proponent of a wide Q-factor. When you talk about power wide is better, IN my belief. Lifting weights, wider is better. sports like cc skiing. speed is produced by pushing down and out. I do not know of a sport in which human’s produce power by moving down and in. Even in running, foot plant is the end of the recovery phase of the cycle. After that which direction does the foot go. As I am 99per cent lead, I do not know about swimming.
Steve
SMp

I am thinking of ways to minimize or eliminate the bottom bracket width and locate my feet close together for more power, rather than splayed apart as at present.

What do you think?

I think that the truth is out there, Scully. :wink:

Hello Andrew Coggan and All,

“I want to believe” but “I trust no one.” (X-Files)

Cheers,

Neal
.

I am a big proponent of a wide Q-factor. When you talk about power wide is better, IN my belief. Lifting weights, wider is better. sports like cc skiing. speed is produced by pushing down and out. I do not know of a sport in which human’s produce power by moving down and in. Even in running, foot plant is the end of the recovery phase of the cycle. After that which direction does the foot go. As I am 99per cent lead, I do not know about swimming.
Steve
SMp

I hate to be an ass, but given that you sell a product that significantly increases Q-factor, that’s a convenient position to take on the matter.

Considering that 1) maximum force production simply isn’t that important to endurance cyclists, and 2) the very, very few cyclists for whom maximum force production actually *is *important tend to use the narrowest cranks, I’m inclined to think that where power output is concerned, Q-factor doesn’t matter.

I think the main considerations are comfort and aerodynamics–but I don’t think that there’s a ‘right’ answer as to ‘what’s better’. I do think that hip width probably plays are part in the comfort aspect of it.

First, that I have maybe 100 pair of pedals out there in the world, hardly qualifies me as a salesmen. My observation is that the human body likes to propel itself by moving down and out. cc skiers, like cyclists, are an aerobic lot. You you are old enough to have used toe clips and straps, you will probably remember retighting the straps to move you foot back in. That is why old road pedals had a quill on the end.
For years and years the same type of belief tied shoulder width to bar width. Many a road rider in the 60’s 70’s, and 80’s used 38 or 40 width bars. that seems absurdly narrow now.
Steve
SMp

well, my main point isn’t that you’re trying to shill for you pedals, but that you may have a cognitive bias on the subject–which can lead you to think that ‘wider is better’.

Anyhoo, I think it’s interesting that track cyclists tend to run very narrow Q (typically), and BMX guys tend to run very wide Q–and yet the peak power numbers for both groups are pretty similar. This really makes me think that it just doesn’t matter that much.

As far as handlebar width–I still adhere to that belief! I’m using 38’s… (making it easier to sneak around the pack is another consideration).

like anything, too wide or too narrow is probably just for a few, outside of the curve… But I must tell you wider bars are the secret for road sprinting. Its all about hand speed and 44’s
Steve
SMp

Though I know of no studies backing it up, I find most folks who ride above 85 rpm tend to “like” the pedals closer to the frame. This is becoming more and more difficult to accomodate as chainstays keep getting shorter and fatter. I’ve had more than a couple bigger dudes clip their heels on the stays and one hit his quick release on a P2.
We of small feet can get a little closer with speedplay x1’s. I’m not sure if anyone else is making a narrower Q pedal…I’d like one with a touch more contact area.
Some other random incidentals: Graham Obree’s design and the Walsers.
I would be very interested to see a study on Q, rpm, and power. Any takers?

What has the evolution made us for, walking or cycling? Is somebody walking here wit a Q of 145mm?

I dont think there is a one size fits all approach here. I have seen riders have a significant improvement or complete alleviation of knee or other issues by widening their stance by spacing the pedals or by moving their cleats in, others who benefited from going the opposite way. I think most can be accomodated by the adjustability of the pedal and cleat interface, but some need more adjustability. One thing worth noting especially with modern external bottom brackets is that there is less room to move the stance inwards. Its easy to get the feet out with a little ingenuity, spacers or longer spindle, but tough to move in beyond a certain point.
I personally prefer to get my stance as narrow as I can, I pedal knees in and tend to rub my crankarms as a result. Really liking the move to double front cranks on mountain bikes as the wider spacing of the triple feels awkward and causes knee pain.
I dont know if Jim Martin has examined it, but given the human body is pretty adaptable I doubt there is a biomechanical advantage to a very narrow stance. Aerodynamic benefit would be a different issue.

Kevin

There can be no correct and ideal Q number that suits all. It all depends on the width of the pelvic girdle and the angle at which the femurs hang from the hip joints, which all affect the ultimate and optimal stance for each person. Sure there may be an optimal range for humans, but no single number will be optimal for all. It’s just like most other things, iow.

Aerodynamic benefit would be a different issue.

Kevin
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And I think that aerodynamics would be influenced by frame choice. If you have air flow that needs more room between the legs to fill in the low pressure areas, then a wider stance would be needed to reduce drag. In addition, if you take the data from the trimble which shows the lowest drag of a bicycle by itself (at the time it was tested), but with a rider, interference with the air flow around the rider made it slower…this would tend to argue that depending on the design, that q-factor may have a variable affect on speed. I am not sure what to say about power, but from what I have seen, you could have a drop in power in either direction…depending on the individual.

What seems to be a confounding factor is that shoes will have some cant to them…not necessarily what the manufacturer intended; but it happens. In addition, each individual foot may have some cant as well. Add to that the ‘toe in’ which some individuals have, and then the fact that their two feet have different ‘toe in’ angles; and the final piece is that most dont realize it and/or dont know what to do about it and it manifests itself as pain, or lost power, or just a feeling that something is wrong.

From all the literature, and opinions which I have heard on the subject, it leads me to believe that it is individual, and that there must exist a set of ‘rules’ which govern what will work, but it is not to say that narrow is better, or wider is better in either power or aerodynamics.

Stephen J

Hello Andrew Coggan and All,

“I see”", I said sheepishly, “someone has been making the narrow Q-Factor for some time with great success”.

(and narrow wheels too)

“I did not know that.” (There are probably other narrow bikes I have not found yet too.)

http://www.walser-cycles.ch/bikes.htm
Bike maestro: Andreas Walser is the ‘carbon master’ by Sabine Schweizer, Inside Switzerland Magazine April 10, 2008 | 08:00

Bespoke racing bicycle maker Andreas Walser’s makes world champions, wins Olympic medals and tour stages. No matter what it says on the outside, there’s often a Walser on the inside. Andreas Walser is the tailor for time trail fanatics and counts former Tour de France winner Jan Ullrich – now banned on doping charges – among his most famous customers.

Others include members of the Gerolsteiner men’s team and the Univega women’s team, like the World Champion, Karin Thurig and the Swiss runner-up world champion Michel Rich.
It all began in the 1990s, when Walser, by now fed up with his job as a foreman, heard of a talented cyclist - Rich - who was having trouble finding the perfect bike. Together they tinkered and tested until the result was stable, comfortable and above all, fast.

Today, Walser is still a one-man industry producing twenty handmade carbon frames a year, with Rich testing the bikes. Walser says he owes his success to his construction methods; the bikes are made in one piece.
Anyone who can afford them and stand the production time can order a Walser. But Andreas warns that those who have an average speed of less than 43 km/h really shouldn’t bother, as it doesn’t matter to hobby cyclists if the air moves five or fifteen centimetres behind the frame.

Cheers,

Neal

Just food for thought:

  • “Ideally Q-Factor would mimic running stance, that is, a very narrow foot placement” - I don’t buy that jump in logic, from my own experience with cycling and running biomechanical analyses. Firstly, the hip position is drastically different in cycling vs. a walking/running gait. On a bike, especially in an aero position, the hips work entirely in a range of motion of hip flexion, vs. passing through neutral and even an extended position in bipedalism. The orientation of the acetabulum (hip sockets) greatly changes the available, and optimal range of motion for the femurs. If you compare the same ranges of motion of the hip joints in supine with the hips in neutral vs. a flexed position, you’ll find wild differences, and not necessarily predictable differences. That same logic applies to changes in the length tension curves of the hip and thigh muscles.

When walking, a normal stance width is about 4-6 inches. When running it is usually zero, meaning that the feet essentially land one in front of the other. That would seem to support the notion of a more narrow foot placement, but running is different, we are only weight bearing on our two feet. To improve economy of motion, we narrow the stance width in running to land our feet directly below our center of gravity (between the navel and lumbar spine, typically). This decrease the moment/lever arms of the width of the pelvis and decreases the load of the hip abductors as they stabilize the relationship between the lumbar spine to the pelvis, and the pelvis to the femur. We don’t have to do that in cycling though, our center of gravity is already supported, by the saddle, and by bilaterally simultaneous weightbearing through the upper and lower extremities. So the benefit of a narrow stance width is lost in cycling, except to improve aerodynamics. I would guess there is research to support this, but my own experience is that people generated more power, in more comfortable position with a stance width that is at least that of their walking stance width, if not wider. I don’t think there has been enough adjustability in options of current gear to allow sufficient mass practical application to make a blanket statement about though.

We rock the bike side-to-side when out of the saddle because we remove the support from the center of gravity (on the saddle), and revert back to a our walk/run gait strategy, only now since our primary areas of weight bearing, our feet, are in a position of fixed width, so we can only bring them under our center of gravity by rocking the bike sideways, and bringing the pedal under the COG. You can ride out of the saddle without rocking, but you’ll feel a hell of a lot of strain through your lateral hip and core musclulature as the deal with the increased lever arm between the axis of motion (hip joint) and the base of support (saddle vs. pedals). try it.

There is no optimal Q angle. There are too many individual human and mechanical models. In my clients I like to see a straight line from hip, through the knee, ankle and second toe, and the lower limb tracking on that line, which doesn’t have to be vertical. That’s just a blue print though. The positioning has to be altered based on individual variances, goals, abilities, (blah blah, heard it before).

Try a single leg press where you are sitting with back supported. play with the position of your foot relative to your center of gravity and see where you feel the most power generation with least amount of joint stress. It would not support the very narrow stance width theory.

Cheers,
Bruk

I do like the concept of adjustability though. That’s what gives us the ability to accommodate all of those individual variances.

My guess is it’s rider specific. Two cases in point: Graham Obree and Lance Armstrong.

Obree’s hour-record breaking bike was built with a narrow Q-factor. One of LA’s biographies touched on a “narrow bike” concept that never went into production. Two world class cyclists, two different approaches.

I would be very interested to see a study on Q, rpm, and power. Any takers?Stay tuned, data have been collected in our lab and will be submitted soon.

I don’t believe there is an optimal q factor. Just the one that works beat for your body type. What works for you works for you.

Hello Andrew Coggan and All,

“I see”", I said sheepishly, “someone has been making the narrow Q-Factor for some time with great success”.

(and narrow wheels too)

“I did not know that.” (There are probably other narrow bikes I have not found yet too.)

http://www.walser-cycles.ch/bikes.htm
Bike maestro: Andreas Walser is the ‘carbon master’ by Sabine Schweizer, Inside Switzerland Magazine April 10, 2008 | 08:00

Bespoke racing bicycle maker Andreas Walser’s makes world champions, wins Olympic medals and tour stages. No matter what it says on the outside, there’s often a Walser on the inside. Andreas Walser is the tailor for time trail fanatics and counts former Tour de France winner Jan Ullrich – now banned on doping charges – among his most famous customers.

Others include members of the Gerolsteiner men’s team and the Univega women’s team, like the World Champion, Karin Thurig and the Swiss runner-up world champion Michel Rich.
It all began in the 1990s, when Walser, by now fed up with his job as a foreman, heard of a talented cyclist - Rich - who was having trouble finding the perfect bike. Together they tinkered and tested until the result was stable, comfortable and above all, fast.

Today, Walser is still a one-man industry producing twenty handmade carbon frames a year, with Rich testing the bikes. Walser says he owes his success to his construction methods; the bikes are made in one piece.
Anyone who can afford them and stand the production time can order a Walser. But Andreas warns that those who have an average speed of less than 43 km/h really shouldn’t bother, as it doesn’t matter to hobby cyclists if the air moves five or fifteen centimetres behind the frame.

Cheers,

Neal

I was actually alluding to the Project 96 wind tunnel data addressing this very issue.

I would be very interested to see a study on Q, rpm, and power. Any takers?Stay tuned, data have been collected in our lab and will be submitted soon.

Just an FYI: I believe that Jim Martin has studied this issue as well (w/ support from Cervelo). I don’t know what he may have found, though.