Why is it called “reverse discrimination” when caucasians are discriminated against? Isn’t this just “discrimination” or simply racism?
Okay that is my lead in. I know the case was only heard today, no ruling, but the New Haven 20 what say you? The “Constitution State” has already offered us Kelo vs. City of New London, this is the next apparent travesty of justice to come out of the state of Connecticut.
"Why is it called “reverse discrimination” when caucasians are discriminated against? Isn’t this just “discrimination” or simply racism? "
In reality, yes, it’s just discrimination, but usually the word “reverse” is tagged on to indicate that it’s the majority, or the group in power that is being discriminated against.
I think it’s best to look at Justice Kennedy’s pattern of questions to glean where this may indeed fall out. I’m sure it’ll be a 5-4 outcome, either way.
T.
I think it’s best to look at Justice Kennedy’s pattern of questions to glean where this may indeed fall out. I’m sure it’ll be a 5-4 outcome, either way.
T.
The fact that this decision is even close is what troubles me (although I agree with your assessment).
I am waiting for a test case. How about this:
After the NFL draft, all the white players who were not drafted, sue the NFL on the basis that the scouting combine is racist and unfairly discriminates against slower white players with high wonderlich scores. The NFL selection process must unfairly discriminate against whites.
We as a society can accept that there are physical differences amongsth the races (or at least there seem to be, Kenyans and Ethiopians win a lot of races), but if ever there is even a suggestion that one race may have an intellectual advantage (like taking tests), everyone throws up their arms and calls it racist.
Your first post nailed it, they are the same thing.
There are specific tests that are used to determine bias in any hiring program. Interestingly the NFL would probably be fairly close to not passing the muster. I bet the NBA would fail (though there may be some sort of exemption in various collective bargaining agreements, union rules, etc).
Full disclosure: I never made it into the NFL or NBA, and I have no clue what this case you reference is about.
**We as a society can accept that there are physical differences amongsth the races (or at least there seem to be, Kenyans and Ethiopians win a lot of races), but if ever there is even a suggestion that one race may have an intellectual advantage (like taking tests), everyone throws up their arms and calls it racist. **
There’s a difference between physiology – and certain Kenyan tribespeople, as children, run miles each way to school every day, so that may explain a bit of why they’re so good – and psychology. There’s not a shred of scientic proof that mentation and intellectual capacity are affected by benign genetic characteristics such as skin color. If that day arrives, then we as people of goodwill will have to look at ways of improving the human condition, somehow.
As to the court case, I think the analogy is a little misaligned, simply for the fact that the exact same test that all candidates had to take was then torn up and thrown out – out of fear of a suit from black candidates who didn’t rank high enough – by the city. I think the promise was that those who scored the best would be promoted. Then the rules were changed after the fact. That sounds like bad faith dealing, outside of any sort of discrimination or reverse discrimination argument being made (the Bakke decision had a lot to say about the subject of reverse discrimination). For what it’s worth, these firemen have lost at almost every appellate court level.
T.
I read this today on MSN. It is an interesting take. My perspective as a firefighter and someone who has taken many civil service exams is that it is crazy for the city to throw the results out. It reeks of “we didn’t like the results, so we will not recognize them.” The City picked the exam. The City chose the educational materials. The City executed the exam. At any point along the way, they could have stopped and said, “You know, we think that this exam might somehow be biased against the minorities who are taking it.” They never said that…until they saw the results. I wonder how many other times they have used this exact same exam when it WASN’T an issue?
I think that if this had been an employment exam rather than a promotional exam, there would be a better case. But the facts are that all of the people who tested for the job were on equal footing BECAUSE they had already established that their intellectual and professional abilities were on par based on their successful completion of the pre-employment civil service exam. The promotional exams are job knowledge and scenario based questions. All of the employees were given the same materials to study, and they all had to have the same minimum standards to test for the promotion.
Chief Justice Roberts has a quote in the article where he says, “the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”
Bernie
I’m not sure about this paticular case, but reading some of the posts I gather it is some Fire dept test where the rules were changed after the fact. I was a victim, if that is what one would call it, or reverse/plain discrimination from my fire dept back in the day. If you were black, a veteran, or a woman, you got extra points in written tests. The physical was constant for everyone, but it was sure hard to make up those points on someone…
Any links to the case, or is it all over the news, and I just havent watched tv today??
**We as a society can accept that there are physical differences amongsth the races (or at least there seem to be, Kenyans and Ethiopians win a lot of races), but if ever there is even a suggestion that one race may have an intellectual advantage (like taking tests), everyone throws up their arms and calls it racist. **
There’s a difference between physiology – and certain Kenyan tribespeople, as children, run miles each way to school every day, so that may explain a bit of why they’re so good – and psychology. There’s not a shred of scientic proof that mentation and intellectual capacity are affected by benign genetic characteristics such as skin color. If that day arrives, then we as people of goodwill will have to look at ways of improving the human condition, somehow.
As to the court case, I think the analogy is a little misaligned, simply for the fact that the exact same test that all candidates had to take was then torn up and thrown out – out of fear of a suit from black candidates who didn’t rank high enough – by the city. I think the promise was that those who scored the best would be promoted. Then the rules were changed after the fact. That sounds like bad faith dealing, outside of any sort of discrimination or reverse discrimination argument being made (the Bakke decision had a lot to say about the subject of reverse discrimination). For what it’s worth, these firemen have lost at almost every appellate court level.
T.
What is a benign genetic characteristic? Skin color has no link to intelligence (the skin does not think).
So you think that because they lost in their prior appeals they are being treated fairly?
The only evidence I have seen to offer that the test was flawed was that black’s performed poorly. Surely there must be something more objective, as to why the test was flawed. Jsut because a certain group did poorly does not mean it is not objectively fair.
I will just counter this baseless claim by asking you for a single shred of peer reviewed evidence that proves the contrary. This type of research is way too controversial and would probably be considered “unethical” byt the intellectual douchebags who decide these types of things. Even if a study was done, the “losers” would claim the results were irrelevant. Find one study that took a random population of white and black american’s and objectively tried to determine if there was a statistically significant difference in cognitive/intellectual ability. I am not saying there is or isn’t a difference, but this is a taboo subject to study.
**There’s not a shred of scientic proof that mentation and intellectual capacity are affected by benign genetic characteristics such as skin color. **
Surely you must be joking. There are plenty of studies and the ones that are fair show a rather large correlation between race and intellectual ability. Common sense would indicate that this has a genetic bias just as physical traits do. It is basic evolution and natural selection.
**If that day arrives, then we as people of goodwill will have to look at ways of improving the human condition, somehow. **
I have no idea what this means.
Surely you must be joking. There are plenty of studies and the ones that are fair show a rather large correlation between race and intellectual ability. Common sense would indicate that this has a genetic bias just as physical traits do. It is basic evolution and natural selection.
Are you sure? Or are the arguments a misapplication of the “nature versus nuture” question? What you’re saying is that a white baby and a black baby, raised in exactly the same manner under exactly the same educational and socio-operant environments may not, solely because of genetic characteristics related to skin color, be capable of attaining similar intellectual outcomes. I don’t buy it. Now, outside of the implications inherent in pleiotropy, I can’t see how it could be possible to say a black man and a white man don’t have equal potential intellectual abilities.
T.
big kahuna is right. Your understanding of “basic evolution and natural selection” is flawed. There are no good data and there never will be because the experiments could never be done. You’d learn why on the first day of a typical evolution class where you discuss heritability.
Now–this does not mean that there isn’t a genetic basis to intelligence (as measured on an IQ test). It just means we can’t ever do the studies that would separate nature vs. nurture and assess different ‘races.’ It simply cannot be done. Ethics does not allow it. Reality does not allow it.
But what if we could detect racial differences in IQ? What if it turned out people of Asian ancestry had a mean IQ of 102 while people of European ancestry had a mean IQ of 100. Would that mean we should always just hire/promote the Asian when it comes down to Asian vs. European? Of course not. Within groups there would be tremendous variation. And an IQ difference of 2 points probably doesn’t mean much compared to someone’s motivation, willingness to work and so on.
**There’s not a shred of scientic proof that mentation and intellectual capacity are affected by benign genetic characteristics such as skin color. **
Surely you must be joking. There are plenty of studies and the ones that are fair show a rather large correlation between race and intellectual ability. Common sense would indicate that this has a genetic bias just as physical traits do. It is basic evolution and natural selection.
**If that day arrives, then we as people of goodwill will have to look at ways of improving the human condition, somehow. **
I have no idea what this means.
I’m curious. What’s the mean IQ of people in the U.S.? Sometimes, I think we’re the most brilliant collection of people on the face of the planet and then sometimes I’m absolutely sure we’re the largest collection of dullards ever in human history. Especially after I see a Britney Spears video.
T.
Are you sure? Or are the arguments a misapplication of the “nature versus nuture” question? What you’re saying is that a white baby and a black baby, raised in exactly the same manner under exactly the same educational and socio-operant environments may not, solely because of genetic characteristics related to skin color, be capable of attaining similar intellectual outcomes.
I think it is safe to ay that psychology really doesn’t know the answer yet. There are plenty of compelling arguments on both sides of the nature/nurture issue. To look at your question from the reverse, take a look at some separated identical twin studies. It is eerie how similar their lives run despite the fact that they grow up in completely disparate environs (similar test scores, similar GPA’s, similar fields of success, etc.). Personally, I don’t believe either nature or nurture alone can account for the whole answer.
Besides, you are going in a direction that is not necessary for this specific case.
Bernie
Rethink those twin studies. Those disparate environs probably aren’t so disparate especially compared to the whole gamut of environments just in this country. White, upper middle class, etc.
I think it is safe to ay that psychology really doesn’t know the answer yet. There are plenty of compelling arguments on both sides of the nature/nurture issue. To look at your question from the reverse, take a look at some separated identical twin studies. It is eerie how similar their lives run despite the fact that they grow up in completely disparate environs (similar test scores, similar GPA’s, similar fields of success, etc.). Personally, I don’t believe either nature or nurture alone can account for the whole answer.
Besides, you are going in a direction that is not necessary for this specific case.
Bernie**
Well stop watching those dang videos! You’re bringing us all down.
I’m curious. What’s the mean IQ of people in the U.S.? Sometimes, I think we’re the most brilliant collection of people on the face of the planet and then sometimes I’m absolutely sure we’re the largest collection of dullards ever in human history. Especially after I see a Britney Spears video.
T.
Precisely. My argument for the case, drawing deep from the well of my California night school JD earned many years ago, is that a good case might be made for bad-faith dealing on the part of the city, number one. But that argument failed at trial and then appellate review, from what I can find. Obviously, the USSC found some interesting legal point it wanted to explore, so I think the answer to what their decision will be might be gleaned from an examination of the questions posed by members of the court, especially that of Justice Kennedy.
My guess is that all their clerks will be told, after they vote tomorrow, to write up an opinion that once again reflects a 5-4 decision. In this particular case? I think the firemen prevail.
T.
“What’s the mean IQ of people in the U.S.?”
It’s estimated at 98, according to Dr. Richard Lynn who wrote IQ and the Wealth of Nations.
We come in tied for 17th.
It’s estimated at 98, according to Dr. Richard Lynn who wrote IQ and the Wealth of Nations.
That explains A LOT. I think we succeed mainly by dint of a helluva work ethic, rather than through some blinding brilliance. Though in a nation as large as ours, with an infrastructure designed to take somebody of real brilliance and leverage the ideas he or she gins up to vastly greater effect than that same person would be able to do alone, I can see why we’ve been as successful as we’ve been.
T.