What "Effective" Seat Tube Angle are you riding?

OK folks, now that Dan has provided the seat angle chart for the trigonometrically challenged, why don’t you all post the type and size of bike you are riding, the manufacterer’s advertised seat tube angle and what you are actually riding. Here is mine:

Kestrel 200 Sc, 54 cm

Manufacturer’s spec seat tube angle 74

Distance of nose behind plumb line 1 cm

Length of Saddle 28 cm

Centre of saddle to plumb line = 1 +28/2 = 15 cm

Saddle Height = 70 cm

Actual Seat Angle = Inv cos(15/70) = 77.6 degrees

Think about it. I am riding at 77.6 degrees on a traditional road bike with an Avocet O2 saddle with a “set back” Dura-Ace seat post, and I could still slide my saddle forward another 1 cm on the rails. I am NOT using a FORWARD or ZERO SET BACK seat post. Bike still handles fine cause I’m riding it in a range that it is designed to be ridden in. I’m probably on the borderline though. If I slide the seat forward another 3 cm to get to 80 degrees using a zero set back post, the bike would start to handle kind of squirrely with all the weight on the front end.

All this to say that you can ride relatively forward on some road bikes and still be fairly steep without being out of the “range of use” that the manufacturer intended.

Cervelo P3 “Bjorned-out” @ 81 degrees.
Guru Aero-Ti @ 79 degrees.
Look KX Light road bike @ 75 degrees.

Tom,

We are still looking from the Bjorn’d out P3 road test report. Have you turned into an “oberbiker” ?

I’m riding 79 degrees on my size 56 Wheeler Ti with a 78 degree seat tube angle. I saw this post and was forced to spend 15 minutes hunting around for where I left my measuring tape … now I know where it is (at least temporarily) and what seat angle I’m riding :slight_smile:

I am not even close to being on his chart. I am 73 in at -7cm tri -9 road. 72-73 ish? Whatevers. G

I ride a 55cm P3 at 80.5 degrees- same as Dan (77cm saddle height with nose 2cm in front of the BB). That’s as far forward as I can get my Aspide on the rails.

I’m still working on “Bjorn’ing” myself out. I’m currently running a stock Syntace Streamliner + base bar with a 90mm Ritchey 84/6 stem pointed down and 1cm of spacer left. I’ve dropped it 2cm over the last month, and I think I’m going to pull that last spacer this weekend and see how it feels.

52 cm Talon SL at between 80 and 81. Closer to 80.

Road bike (Cannondale CAAD4) @ 73.4°

Tri bike (Cervelo One 2002) @ 78.2°

Trigonometrically measured … slowtwitch’s chart confirmed !

Felt F50 Road Bike 56cm

Manufacturer’s seat angle: 74 degrees

Tri setup seat angle: 77 degrees using factory seatpost

Just had a fitting done by Seton at TriSports.com (trained by Dan)

Tucker
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So, I guess these numbers still vary depending on where we ride on the saddle. How would we determine the actual seat angle as ridden? I’m too lazy to figure it out myself.

Dan asks: “How do you know what seat angle you’re riding?” I ask: “Why do you care what seat angle you’re riding?” There is one thing that is more ludicrous than wasting your time determining your relative seat angle, that is wasting your time explaining why relative seat angle has no value as a baseline for performance or comparison. As Dan explains there are many variables that allow you to locate your seat in space relative to your bottom bracket. Many of which are not able to be accurately measured. Dan’s attempt to create a target for the third point in space to make up an angle is noble. But I am not sure what value this information provides to an athlete. Look at it this way, you can have two bikes set up with the same relative seat angle, cockpit length and drop and two athletes that are the same height. One fit may work for one athlete and be way off for the other. As a baseline for comparison or performance the positional coordinates offer little value from one athlete to another. You can not eliminate the athlete’s individual ability (or lack thereof) to produce power, be biomechanically efficient, be balanced, stable, breathe and digest, as it relates to the positional coordinates of their bike set up. Not to mention the athlete’s asymmetries, injuries, imbalances, posture, fitness…

Why are triathletes focused on seat angle? Road cyclists don’t care. Let’s apply this thought process to another sport. Do Pro baseball players compare their baseball bat’s size and weight to other player’s bats? Does any one care what size bat Barry Bonds is using? It is not the equipment, it is the relationship of the equipment to the athlete that allows the athlete to produce power, be biomechanically efficient, be balanced, stable and breathe while using the equipment. Are we seeing a common thread running through here?

Can someone please tell me why seat angle is important as a single component to bike fit? Because as far as I am concerned, you might as well start a thread telling us your shoe size. It has as much relevance as a baseline for performance as seat angle.

Maybe I am a little cynical. But my experience as a bike fitter has taught me that if you let common sense be your guide you will have a better chance of making it to your final destination.

And if I am way off base here not understanding the reason for the search of the holy grail of seat angles I apologize. Please educate me, because as you can see I am lost in understanding the value of seat angle. Dan, Tom D., John C., Christopher K.??? Help me out here. Am I just being a rambling idiot on this subject?

Oppss…Sorry…thats on my Penny Farthing!
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Why are triathletes focused on seat angle? Road cyclists don’t care. Let’s apply this thought process to another sport. Do Pro baseball players compare their baseball bat’s size and weight to other player’s bats? Does any one care what size bat Barry Bonds is using? It is not the equipment, it is the relationship of the equipment to the athlete that allows the athlete to produce power, be biomechanically efficient, be balanced, stable and breathe while using the equipment. Are we seeing a common thread running through here?

Can someone please tell me why seat angle is important as a single component to bike fit? Because as far as I am concerned, you might as well start a thread telling us your shoe size. It has as much relevance as a baseline for performance as seat angle.

Maybe I am a little cynical. But my experience as a bike fitter has taught me that if you let common sense be your guide you will have a better chance of making it to your final destination.

And if I am way off base here not understanding the reason for the search of the holy grail of seat angles I apologize. Please educate me, because as you can see I am lost in understanding the value of seat angle. Dan, Tom D., John C., Christopher K.??? Help me out here. Am I just being a rambling idiot on this subject?

I don’t know what I’m riding, since Dan didn’t include seat angles below 75*. I guess mine is wrong.

Tri Bike: Felt S32 48 cm

Manufacturer’s spec seat tube angle: 78 Degrees

Angle I’m riding: 80 Degrees (extrapolating from the chart cuz the seat height is less than 65 cm)

Road Bike: GIOS Torino 50 cm

Manufacturer’s spec seat tube angle: 76 Degrees

Angle I’m riding: 77 Degrees

Shoe size: Sidi 42.5 :wink: Sorry Paul L, I had to put that in there.

jaretj

Jason, if you can’t find your angle on Dan’s chart, use the trigonometric formula that I provided in the first post in this thread.

Shoe size: Sidi 42.5 :wink: Sorry Paul L, I had to put that in there.

jaretj
Jaretj, actually shoe size does have a bearing on seat angle as do femur and tibia length…

I know, I was just trying to joke around with Paul Levine a bit.

jaretj

Did that.

74.6 degrees.

Roadie bike is at 73.0

“Please educate me, because as you can see I am lost in understanding the value of seat angle.”

coupla reasons i can think of to bring up this subject.

first, you bring up road cyclists as an example. they don’t care what their seat angle is. yes. but they DO care (sometimes, depending on the fitter and system) about where they sit in an XY relation to the BB, by virtue of knee relative to pedal spindle. what this yields is almost always a seat position of 72-74 degrees. so while in practice seat angle doesn’t matter, we see that the range of usual seat angles narrows significantly. therefore, KOPS, or center of mass, or whatever the focus of one’s system for determining road saddle position, the resulting narrow range of seat angles is a notable observation. if a roadie was set up at, say, 68° of seat angle, this might cause the subject to question the process used to determine saddle position, even if the seat angle itself is not the proper focus of fit. if this applies to roadies, perhaps there is utility for triathletes as well.

further, if people actually do measure their seat angles on their tri bikes, and if a great number actually find that they’re riding at +/- 80°, or if they’re all riding at 74°, perhaps that will be valuable information for bike makers who’re only making 76° tri bikes at this point.

this would also be instructive to governing bodies around the world who might be slow in making front/center rules that allow for steeper bikes to be ridden in their safest geometric configurations. if 60% of us turn out to actually be riding around at 80°, why are front/center rules built to accommodate bikes ridden at 75° or shallower?

more, assuming you’re attentive to FIST principles, our armrest drop formula is seat angle specific. For example, at 80° of seat angle and 78cm of saddle height, the middle of the formula’s range is right about 14cm of drop. but at 76° of seat angle the middle of the range is about 11cm of drop. no, the formula is absolutely not to be followed as a first principle. it is only a double-check on proper fit work already accomplished.

however…

if you’ve got 11cm of drop at 80° at 78cm of saddle height, that’s perhaps an indication that your armrests might be higher than optimal. while it’s hard-to-impossible to measure your own hip angle while in the aero position, you can measure these points in space as represented on your bike. i’d guess that 80° of seat angle, 78cm of saddle height, and 11cm of drop means a hip angle at bottom dead center of perhaps upwards of 110° (measuring FIST points) and this is likely a position that doesn’t adequately recruit gluteals (perhaps CK can comment on this).

assuming a slowtwitch reader fits the description above, he perhaps calls paul levine and schedules a fit :slight_smile:

off the top of my head, these are reasons why seat angle education might have utility. otherwise, yes, your thesis is absolutely correct.