What does your power curve look like? What workouts should I do?

Triathlon Forum
1

Right now I am bike focused, only bike races on the horizon. Key events for me are Cascade Cycling Classic (40+ 1/2/3), and our state road race (40+) a few weeks later. I am also doing a 5 day gravel stage race after these events, but that is just for fun, not worried about workouts for that besides ride a lot.

I feel like I have pathetically low max power. I only hit 1000W in my life, that was in a crit two years ago. I weigh 72 kg.

Here are my current numbers, all results are based on the last 6 weeks.

1s 750W (race, finishing sprint, although this managed to get me third place; it was uphill and I went early)
20s 605W (workout, all the rest of these are from workouts)
60s 440W
5 minute 369W
10 minute 333W
20 minute 325W

Workouts I have done so far this year

2x20min w/ 4minute recovery, did this workout twice
7x20s w/10s recovery, did this workout 3-4 times
3 x~8 minutes (this is my hill workout, all on a climb), but longer rest because I descend all the way down, rest is like 6-8 minutes, did this workout once
Everything else just ride. One race and I did two fondos where I put in some hard efforts at times, but it was totally unstructured.

Any suggestions on where I am weakest? what workouts should I do? I feel like I need more of the 7x20 s and I can do this every week and still do a longer interval workout. I say the 7x20 seconds because I feel like my FTP is pretty decent (slightly above average for masters), but my punch is terrible and the punch is what really matters in bike races.

2

If you want to improve your 20s power you should do much longer rest (several minutes, not ten seconds) between efforts.

3

If you want to improve sprint power, you have to hit the gym and lift.

I’m dealing with something sort of similar. Cut a lot of weight and lost power because I lost muscle. Now that I’m leaner, trying to build muscle back but still stay lean is a challenge.

4

If you were me, and I had those numbers with those race goals, I’d spent a lot of time in the 30-90s range, as those seem really, really low for racing 1/2/3s.

To compare, my 5 sec power is about 600 watts higher than my one minute power, which is a good 300 watts higher than my 5 minute power.

Sprinting is more about positioning than anything, but getting in and holding position requires a decent amount of skill and fitness. I’m generally doing a few “sprints” before the sprint, and have found having really good 1 minute power (coupled with good aerobic fitness) helps me to do those efforts and then recover enough to do them again, 3-4x over before the final sprint.

So for improving absolute 30-90s power, I usually do a max effort with 7-10 mins recovery between. For doing repeated, I like doing things like 30s on, 60s off 4-5x. Lots of variations, but the shorter recoveries work the aerobic side along with the nm side.

5

moving from endurance TT efforts to track events, I spent the winter working on the left side of my curve. Just keep in mind that anaerobic/aerobic work is sort of sliding scale… you’ll lose some of one side as you focus on the other. That said, I think you could improve your left side pretty quick. As above mentioned, you want a lot of rest between sets. For all out efforts you really want to do each one at your limit, and you can’t do that with a few seconds rest. Some of my workouts are over an hour, but only a few minutes of it is above 100w. (Of course those are full gas)

recent tests (within the last month)
Pmax - 1223
20s - 980
1m - 660
5m - 375
here’s where it starts to take a toll on the right side of my curve
10m - 308 (down from 330 last year)
20m - 285 (down from 316 last year)

more really hard efforts from 20" to 1:40 or so would probably pump up your FRC, which will help cover and launch attacks / punchy hills, etc. I probably wouldn’t worry too much about Pmax efforts (I wouldn’t ignore it, just don’t focus on it) if you aren’t hoping for the races to end in a field sprint.

6

If you want to improve sprint power, you have to hit the gym and lift.

I’m dealing with something sort of similar. Cut a lot of weight and lost power because I lost muscle. Now that I’m leaner, trying to build muscle back but still stay lean is a challenge.

I was lifting regularly over the winter and I have found this helps. However, there a limits to how much training load I can handle, so in season my intent is to try to incorporate strength work directly into the cycling workouts.

7

Could you give a very specific example of one of your max power workouts? Like exactly how many intervals in a session, how long and how much rest? Right now I only have 3 specific workouts I do and I am trying to get a basic handle on some other idea.

And maybe to clarify, I am not trying to become a sprinter, I am just trying to get a sense of what kind of “balance” is in a good power curve. As you say, you can’t be good at everything, I am just trying to be a little more well rounded and at least do some workouts that are focused on addressing my weakest areas. Get the low hanging fruit. I have been doing endurance sports long enough to know my strengths are more in the 20-60 minute range.

8

One I seem to do a lot is 5-8x1’ at a little below max effort (about 600 for me) with 8 minutes recovery between (recovery sub 100w spin)

You probably won’t be able to hit the power every set…just give those everything and don’t worry so much about the exact #. That’s a solid frc builder.
8-10x20sec max effort with similar recovery is a good one, basically somewhere between 20" and 90" very hard, 5-8 sets, lots of recovery.

9

the advice above is excellent, I wanted to add on other thing. You can improve your power parameters to a degree, but the thing you can impact hugely is a) the races you select and b) the tactics you use. If I had to guess, you suffer over the hills with the front group, do an OK job making a bridge and tend to do less well in a sprint. If you know your chances in an intact group are poor and you also lack the brute strength to ride the legs off people in a break, then you may need to be extra clever in using the efforts of others to help get the party started, then use your good strength-endurance to hang in the break and consider doing the hail mary long attack from a ways out if you figure your chances of placing well against your break companions is poor. There is sometimes that point where people are close enough to the finish that they get selfish and let the move go, rare though it is.

I would think you need to be in a break or out alone as your #1 priority, but I’m just speculating. In fact, I would say attacking like crazy and being so aggressive that you drop out or roll in off the back is a more positive race outcome than finishing in the group in 28th place, at least you played the hand you are dealt. Perhaps try it in a club race or some local event, see how it sits with you. You have to be willing to lose.

10

This is all about building your glycolytic capacity (VLamax)- in order to improve your ability to increase sprint power/output.

Looking purely at a PDC will not tell you where the power comes from. Example, above your AT- what is the energy contribution- at different power? Without exception, the your aerobic system is still doing a large chunk of the effort. This is where FRC and the modeling in training peaks fail. In a sprint, someone like Sagan is still getting a big contribution from his aerobic metabolism to generate 1400 watts for 15 seconds. However, knowing what % is key to then creating a plan to improve, without too much disruption to your FTP/AT/LT…

11

Sprinting is more about positioning than anything,

I disagree with that. :wink: A great sprinter can bail himself out of poor positioning. I can get perfect positioning and will get swarmed every single time. In track, I can be 2nd wheel on the last turn with a sprinter’s gap, and doesn’t help. At some point it makes sense to embrace who you are, rather than who you want to be. And it’s OK. Bradley Wiggins and Fabian Cancellara couldn’t sprint either.

Though to be the guy who goes from 2 laps you still need 60s power, and it looks like the OP can work on that.

12

Sprinting is more about positioning than anything,

I disagree with that. :wink: A great sprinter can bail himself out of poor positioning. I can get perfect positioning and will get swarmed every single time. In track, I can be 2nd wheel on the last turn with a sprinter’s gap, and doesn’t help. At some point it makes sense to embrace who you are, rather than who you want to be. And it’s OK. Bradley Wiggins and Fabian Cancellara couldn’t sprint either.

Though to be the guy who goes from 2 laps you still need 60s power, and it looks like the OP can work on that.

A great sprinter can do a lot of things.

Most people aren’t great sprinting. But those same people can place in a sprint with positioning.

If you’re second wheel in the last turn you can still top 5, maybe even podium. You won’t have a chance if you’re not there in the mix.

I’m not talking about winning, winning is extremely difficult. I’m talking about sprinting, which is not so difficult when you get a nose for it. Hell, I made it to cat 1 without ever cracking 1250 watts (at 160 lbs) and every single one of my upgrade points in every single category came from bunch sprints. I think I won a grand total of four races on my way from a 4 to a 1.

Position matters more than anything.

13

One I seem to do a lot is 5-8x1’ at a little below max effort (about 600 for me) with 8 minutes recovery between (recovery sub 100w spin)

You probably won’t be able to hit the power every set…just give those everything and don’t worry so much about the exact #. That’s a solid frc builder.
8-10x20sec max effort with similar recovery is a good one, basically somewhere between 20" and 90" very hard, 5-8 sets, lots of recovery.

Sorry to keep asking for more clarification, but I am still not sure I understand this workout.

Are you saying to do 5-8 x 20-90 seconds hard, with equal recovery (so one set is 5-8 intervals, recovery in set is equal to the interval) and then 8 minutes easy before repeating a set?

So this workout might go

1 min hard/i min easy (5-8x), then recovery spin for eight minutes. Repeat 2-3 times?

14

Hey,
No way… 1’ all out, 8’ full recovery. Repeat 5x8 times. If you’re going to go all out, you will think that’s not enough rest :wink:

15

To answer the question of the topic: on 70kg

1s: 1350
5s: 1180
30s: 750
60s: 575
2min: 400
3min: 380
12min thru 20min: 300
Hr??? Mystery

I never do sprint workouts. I do some 1:1 VO2, 2 x 3x3 min, under overs, long SS.

I often do 1:1’s till I drop. 400 on, 150 off till I cry.

I don’t often do 1min on amd long rest. I should try.

Another favorite is 30sec all out into 2:30 of 105% and repeat every 3 min. Peak and fades.

16

I’m not talking about winning, winning is extremely difficult. I’m talking about sprinting, which is not so difficult when you get a nose for it. Hell, I made it to cat 1 without ever cracking 1250 watts (at 160 lbs) and every single one of my upgrade points in every single category came from bunch sprints. I think I won a grand total of four races on my way from a 4 to a 1.

Position matters more than anything.

I guess it makes sense for upgrade points, but I’ve bought into the culture that it’s better to come in last than race for 4th or 5th. So I try to not have races come down to sprints, but if they are going to be sprints. I’m going 3-4 minutes out rather than fighting for scraps. Not that high of a probability. But it sometimes works. And it sometimes helps teammates who are sprinters.

17

I guess it makes sense for upgrade points, but I’ve bought into the culture that it’s better to come in last than race for 4th or 5th. So I try to not have races come down to sprints, but if they are going to be sprints. I’m going 3-4 minutes out rather than fighting for scraps. Not that high of a probability. But it sometimes works. And it sometimes helps teammates who are sprinters.

Win or nothing? In bike racing?

With genuine curiosity, have you actually gotten far in cycling with that mentality? I would think it’d take years to progress with that, if at all. I mean, I’ve done upwards of 50 bike races a year. If I approached them all with that mentality, I don’t know. I don’t think I would have made it very far. At the end of the day, I don’t think I’ve ever been the best out there. That I was able to initially get results when starting out, and am now able to get 2-5 wins a year despite never being the strongest or fastest sprinter, I put as a result of learning how to be a good bike racer. And I don’t think you learn how to be a good bike racer with suicide attacks and all or nothing attempts at races, personally.

18

He’s a very solid bike racer FYI
.

19

hat I was able to initially get results when starting out, and am now able to get 2-5 wins a year despite never being the strongest or fastest sprinter, I put as a result of learning how to be a good bike racer. And I don’t think you learn how to be a good bike racer with suicide attacks and all or nothing attempts at races, personally.

Well learning to be a bike racers encompasses a large variety of skills. The solo break being one. And a suicide attack is only suicide if they catch you. :wink:

A lot of it has to do with culture where you race (which is why I mentioned culture). In SoCal here, it’s heavily team dominated, and breaks are very common as a few big teams can just rip things to shreds. There are frequent opportunities to not be involved in a field sprint. But it takes risk and big efforts. Taking those efforts could cost being able to sprint well. But they’re a better payoff for those without good sprint power. Of course either way positioning matters.

As to where I am, I’m happy! I’m not going to get into a pissing match about credentials. But I’d say not counting TT, which I win a lot, my win % is probably similar to yours. I’m not dominant, but can find opportunities. I may get more total wins, but that’s partially because I race track too, and that’s just a lot of racing. Occasionally all the competition jacks it up.

20

I guess it makes sense for upgrade points, but I’ve bought into the culture that it’s better to come in last than race for 4th or 5th. So I try to not have races come down to sprints, but if they are going to be sprints. I’m going 3-4 minutes out rather than fighting for scraps. Not that high of a probability. But it sometimes works. And it sometimes helps teammates who are sprinters.

Win or nothing? In bike racing?

With genuine curiosity, have you actually gotten far in cycling with that mentality? I would think it’d take years to progress with that, if at all. I mean, I’ve done upwards of 50 bike races a year. If I approached them all with that mentality, I don’t know. I don’t think I would have made it very far. At the end of the day, I don’t think I’ve ever been the best out there. That I was able to initially get results when starting out, and am now able to get 2-5 wins a year despite never being the strongest or fastest sprinter, I put as a result of learning how to be a good bike racer. And I don’t think you learn how to be a good bike racer with suicide attacks and all or nothing attempts at races, personally.

I think what he is saying (and I agree with), is for races you actually feel you can get a result (and if you were doing 50 races in a season and your name is not Peter Sagan, my assumption a lot of them were just for training/fun and there were only a handful where you had an expectation of a result), anything that isn’t top 3 doesn’t matter. I would also rather be 10 minutes off the back based on trying failed attacks than sprinting for 7th place (in a race I thought I had chance). Some days its better to burn out than fade away;) If it was just a whatever race, sure I would be happy to stay in and not ever try to do anything, but that also isn’t really “racing”. There is no right answer here, everyone has their own approach and it may be different for every race. And as you say, it is very, very hard to win (so most of us are not going to win, probably ever), so might as well just race with the mentality that suits your personality (at least I tried to race).

I would also observe, sprints can be really dodgy in amateur racing (coming out of the last corner in a crit), so my view is stay out of them (not worth the risk, especially if you aren’t really a sprinter). I totally agree positioning matters a lot, but this is what also makes it dangerous in amateur racing. You have the guys who are actually really fast and the guys who are cagey (trying to win by position, but they are quite outmatched in power) and this is a recipe for crashes. In pro sprints I think there is more of a pecking order, everyone knows who is supposed to be up there and guys know when it is their job to pull off (and to even be there in the first place) and who are the real sprinters who will contest the finish. Most amateur sprints are free-for-alls, where everybody thinks they can win (even though most of them can’t, unless the free for all causes a crash and they are lucky enough to avoid it). Again not saying, the real sprinters are not fighting for position in a pro race, I am just saying these are all guys with reasonably matched max power, there are no interlopers there, so you don’t see a lot of crashes.