What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing?

Triathlon Forum
1

Maybe I am late to the party, but it seems that late in life, I just discovered using the conceptII rowing machine at the gym given that I am neither running nor riding, both affected by some nerve issues. I have been swimming quite a bit and doing some weight and core work in the gym and able to use the elliptical, but decided to give the rowing machine a go, and it seems I can do the motion with no pain, nor leg spasms…so great, another torture device for me to overtrain on.

So from all you guys who are in the know, what do I need to focus on:

Technique seems pretty straight forward based on watching athletes in the Olympics and youtube instruction on correct form (I’m not saying balancing and timing in the boat is easy, but it looks easy enough on land…seemingly not highly technical). But let me know what to focus on the stroke in terms of power application, timing and correct postureWhat types of workout are you guys doing. I am thinking that i would add it in as short 3-5 bursts as part of a circuit in the weight roomRoughly what speed should I be aiming for for 500m. I assume being bigger has a huge advantage vs being a lightweight…i’m 5’6" 140ish lbs…on the bike generally 3.9-4.2W per kilo FTP…any idea what this size engine and size translates to in terms of what speeds to aspire towardsLonger workout suggestions?Any injury items that I need to worry about on this torture device…my brain and engine generally tend to cash cheques that the bank balance in my body can’t afford!!!

2

its as boring as a trainer but more painful. Sorry for my somewhat sarcastic answers below, but I’m being honest.

Technique-I’ll let someone else take a crack at this. This is kinda like asking someone “Teach me swim technique by writing it down the proper technique in a forum”. If you think its straightforward based on a YouTube video then just go and do it.What types of workout are you guys doing. I think you can do very similar workouts to what you would do on an indoor trainer. In fact, I have used many old rowing workouts in cycling.Roughly what speed should I be aiming for for 500m. This is like my asking you in a vacuum…“What power should I train at for cycling”. I have no idea what you should be able hold and neither will anyone else here.Longer workout suggestions? See Response to No. 2. To keep things a little less boring, consider varying the rate (strokes per minute) every 2 minutes-go up or down by 2 strokes per minute each time. And vary speed. I have no doubt you have enough cycling workouts in your bank that you can develop something that works just as well.Any injury items that I need to worry about on this torture device…of course, there are all kinds of potential injuries, but not necessarily if you are just doing it to supplement other training, although your lower back may become more sore.

3

You need to know that they call the machine the “erg”, because that’s the sound you make when you are done with it.

Once upon a time when I trained with the varsity team, one of the key workouts was a 2000m TT. Apparently the benchmark was to get below 8min. I could get close, but never get it. Needless to say I was one of the shamed ones.

Edited to add:
In an actual rowing race, they would go 10 (or 15 or 20) strokes super hard all out effort, at 500m intervals. So you could replicate that on the machine. So their race sim on the erg would be:

10 hard to start
500m row
10 hard
etc… (you get the point)

4

8 minutes??? was it an elementary school team?

5

8 minutes??? was it an elementary school team?

I just got cut from the elementary school team. I’ll work up to keeping up with the elementary school squad for at least 500m (2 min) as a starting point.

6

haha yes, no worries as I (and most AGers) are at the elementary school level of swimming. Enjoy it–its a great calorie burner if nothing else. I have managed to avoid that torture machine since I stopped rowing after college.

7

I’m happy to help you with this. Finally, a thread that I can reply to where I may know more than Rappstar.
I’m most happy to write back to you as I’ve read 1000s of your posts and learned so much from you.

  1. Send me a video of you rowing on the Concept 2. Pretty sure my email is in my profile. If not just send to martycrotty@gmail.com

  2. You must be able to do #1 well enough to make #2 matter and frankly, safe enough. If your technique is garbage, the longer you spend on the ‘machine’ the more chance you have of injuring yourself.

That said, when we do get our guys rowing well we spend anywhere from 60-80 mins on the erg 4-5 Days per week in the winter months with 2-3 sessions per week in the weight room. Three of those erg days are strictly SS, LSD, UT1, everyone has diff nomenclature. One of those days will be a threshold workout, which we’ve found is about 88-92% of max heart rate for about 30-40 minutes (ask me for workouts) and one of those days is pure power, absolute maximal effort Think: :30-1:00 intervals x 10 or 2 sets of 6-8.

  1. Sorry to keep going back to #1 but you will have a VERY hard time doing 4 w/kg on a rowing ergometer if you’re not rowing the machine well. For example if you’re FTP is 64kgx4.0w/kg you’d have to sustain about 252 watts for an hour. Piece of cake on a bicycle but 1:51/500m on an ergometer gets rough for someone who isn’t sharp.

For comparison sake we had a guy the other day, our best guy, hold 330 watts 1:42/500m for one hour. He’s 72kg (so 4.65ish w/kg) He’s our best guy among some really good guys. The Best two guys in the world (one of them was Hamish Bond can go 1:36/500m, about 410 watts at about 95kg so about the same. But which is more impressive??? Interesting.

For the earlier poster, we had a guy pull 1:33/500m, 6:13.2, 431 watts, for 2000m at 72kg (5.99 w/kg).

Finally for :30 we have guys who can pull 700w avg, a 1:18-1:19 split, at 75ish kg for more than 9 w/kg

Yes, a well trained Rower can do a 100m, 2000m, 30’ and 60’ test without doing the others and get pretty close est. to the other three, but a novice fitness center guy can’t extrapolate a 100m into FTP on an Erg. Just as it’s not accurate for someone who doesn’t ride much to do a 20’ test on a Watt bike and use some BS conversion to get their FTP.

  1. Dozens of longer workouts to do. Like I said ours are between 60-80’. I strongly suggest you don’t row for more than 30’ straight. Stand up and stretch every 30’ otherwise you’re going to get twisted. So 30-30-20 works or 3x20’ is a staple (4’ rest). Pace is 2000m TT + about 20 splits, for example, 1:45spkit for 2000m makes your SS split 2:05/500m. We don’t usually convert things to watts. Rowing v cycling thing I suppose. I’m happy to send you others. Like any training plan things get a bit boring in the later weeks so we always try to mix it up. So much more that I could write here.

  2. Aw geez. Yes, definitely. Please make sure you’re sitting on your Butt bones, or are tending to the front of the butt bones. If your weight is in front of your hips at the catch, you can use your legs more. The more you can use your legs the safer you’ll be. Legs legs legs. As a reference, your body should not open past perpindicular until your legs are all the way down. And you should not use your arms (bend your arms) until your body has started to open.). 95% of Olympic, elite rowers employ this technique so they must be onto something.

The guys that injure themselves open their bodies to early and ‘grab’ the handle with their arms far too early, putting too much load on their lower backs or ribs.

I can’t wait for the slowtwitch guys to fire holes in this one. Go ahead. Happy to talk offline about all of this. Send me an email.

Thanks again for all of your help over the years

Marty.

8

Great information. It’s interesting that this subject came up. One of my masters swim mates was a rower and we were talking about this very subject i.e. The importance of proper technique. I’ve been studying the C2 technique videos too. I went 500m in 2:00 the other day and it was not easy. No telling how long 2000m would take … well over 8:00 I’m sure. It was a fun, albeit painful, supplement to my treadmill run.

9

I’m replying as the mom of a Division 1 Lightweight college rower who is 6’2’, 150 lbs and rows on the first varsity boat at his school. It appears that most of their indoor erg training is done at steady state, doing long pieces where they focus on keeping their stroke rate low and their power high. They break this up with days of 3x20 and other intervals of higher intensity but nowhere near race pace. Every once in a while they will schedule a 2K test after which they all throw up. For reference, I think a college lightweight has a 2K time somewhere around 6:30 (I could be off on this). A heavyweight rower will be much faster! Try to find a rower who can make sure your stroke is correct, I find it is a lot harder than it looks to get the power from your legs rather than your arms.

My son doesn’t have access to an erg over the summer so he rides his bike and arrives for pre-season in the same shape as the kids who were able to erg over their break. On the flip side, he only rides his bike for a few weeks in the summer and was able to come 9:26 behind the winner of the Mount Washington Bicycle Race last summer based on his rowing fitness. (Mom brag)

10

That’s all great information.

My only addition, as a rowing coach for ~10 years, is to mix up the steady-state workouts interval stuff. I never wanted my team to burn out on the non-stop hours on the erg, so I threw in some funner (and more painful) things every 3rd or 4th workout. 250s. 100s. Fartlek type stuff. Relay races. I always thought it helped people stay mentally fresh, and was possibly also a benefit for exercising other energy systems. Also good because super high power/high rate stuff can expose technical flaws that you might not see otherwise. If you can’t handle a 50 spm starting-20 on the erg, you sure as hell aren’t ready for it on the water.

11

I’m not an expert on the Concept2 rower, but I’ll tell you my story anyway ;).

Years ago, I was purely a runner and closing in on a 2:50 marathon at the age of 43 (PR of 2:56 a year earlier). Unfortunately, I got a stress fracture so I couldn’t run for a couple of months. I started riding a stationary bike and then the rower as both didn’t have the impact that would hurt my tibia. I was (and still am) a little guy 5’5" 128 lbs so don’t have a ton of muscle mass. Still I would duke it out with the ‘big’ guys until I could just break 8 minutes in the 2000.

When I started running again, I was shocked how much fitness I got (or maintained) and was back in the hills within a couple of weeks. After just 3 months of running, I took a chance and went for my first attempt at a sub 2:50 marathon. I didn’t get it as I faded badly the last 10k, but I was on track through the half and finished in 2:59. Just 5 months later, I went at it again and this time I did get that elusive 2:49.

I always tell people how the rower either gave me more leg strength or at least maintained my running fitness despite not running for 2 months. I joined a gym a few months ago and now cross train on the Concept 2. At the age of 63, I can’t even get close to 8 minutes anymore, but sub 9 is common for a hard effort (never all out anymore).

12

Let me throw out a few concepts to try to help despite my comments and thinking that there is little utility in this, but maybe it will be helpful!

Posture-tall/proud. Like a deadlift. Similarly, don’t break you arms at the catch (beginning of stroke)-again think sorta like a deadlift. For power application, Probably think legs, back then arms but let it flow naturally and not choppy in applying that technique as it all happens pretty quickly and naturally anyway.

Oh and set the erg on something like
2-4. Too many people who don’t know how to row and hop on and set it at 8-10. No need for such extra tension which would more likely to lead to injury.

13

Does your screen name carrying the rowing significance that it implies?? As rower or coach?

14

Dev
Lots of good videos to look at on youtube with regards to technique… all about the legs!
Make sure that you adjust the drag factor to an appropriate number to avoid hurting your intercostals muscles and ribs.

I bet erg is the hardest piece of machinery in the gym if used correctly.
I did a 6K on the erg a few months ago and a 30 min indoor competition a few weeks ago.
My heart rate on the erg is definitely higher now than when I was running interval workouts at my prime 20 years ago!

The erg absolutely helps the strength and conditioning element of swimming. I always feel great in the water the day after an erg workout.

Here is an example of a simple erg workout that you can do:

WARM UP
5 min easy
5 x 30" accelerations with 30" easy between efforts

MAIN SET
5 min at 20 @ steady
6 min at 22 @ moderate
4 min at 24 @ hard
3 min rest and reset

4 min at 22 @ steady
5 min at 24 @ moderate
3 min at 26 @ hard
3 min rest and reset

3 min at 24 @ steady
4 min at 26 @ moderate
2 min at 28 @ hard
3 min rest and reset

2 min at 26 @ steady
3 min at 28 @ moderate
1 min at 30 @ hard

WARM DOWN
5 min easy

15

Maybe I am late to the party, but it seems that late in life, I just discovered using the conceptII rowing machine at the gym given that I am neither running nor riding, both affected by some nerve issues. I have been swimming quite a bit and doing some weight and core work in the gym and able to use the elliptical, but decided to give the rowing machine a go, and it seems I can do the motion with no pain, nor leg spasms…so great, another torture device for me to overtrain on.

So from all you guys who are in the know, what do I need to focus on:

Technique seems pretty straight forward based on watching athletes in the Olympics and youtube instruction on correct form (I’m not saying balancing and timing in the boat is easy, but it looks easy enough on land…seemingly not highly technical).
To be certain: rowing is EXTRAORDINARILY technical—probably moreso than swimming. Rowing on an erg is less technical, but still requires a good bit of proper technique to prevent injury, and also get the benefit of doing the work. Since you have an offer for free coaching from a pro, you should take it. Whatever Marty Crotty says to do: DO IT (He’s the varsity lightweight mens coach at Princeton… he knows the sport).

Also, check out his side project: Princeton Carbon Works wheels, which seems to be getting some traction, etc.

16

Dev
Lots of good videos to look at on youtube with regards to technique… all about the legs!
Make sure that you adjust the drag factor to an appropriate number to avoid hurting your intercostals muscles and ribs.

I bet erg is the hardest piece of machinery in the gym if used correctly.
I did a 6K on the erg a few months ago and a 30 min indoor competition a few weeks ago.
My heart rate on the erg is definitely higher now than when I was running interval workouts at my prime 20 years ago!

The erg absolutely helps the strength and conditioning element of swimming. I always feel great in the water the day after an erg workout.

Here is an example of a simple erg workout that you can do:

WARM UP
5 min easy
5 x 30" accelerations with 30" easy between efforts

MAIN SET
5 min at 20 @ steady
6 min at 22 @ moderate
4 min at 24 @ hard
3 min rest and reset

4 min at 22 @ steady
5 min at 24 @ moderate
3 min at 26 @ hard
3 min rest and reset

3 min at 24 @ steady
4 min at 26 @ moderate
2 min at 28 @ hard
3 min rest and reset

2 min at 26 @ steady
3 min at 28 @ moderate
1 min at 30 @ hard

WARM DOWN
5 min easy

Wait, 20 years ago, you beat Miles Stewart and Hamish Carter in Lausanne at ITU worlds and you’re saying you were slacking off in your run workouts with only a 31:14 min 10K and now training harder now as an old fart on an erg??? OK OK…you guys got me motivated.

I am going to ease into all of this with sets of 3-5 minutes for a bunch of weeks during weight workouts and then graduate. Simon those numbers in the 20’s are those strokes per minute? What type of strokes per minute should I be aiming for at my height. I assume short athletes will take more strokes per minute since the range that our legs and arms move through is smaller?

On the front of focusing on the legs it is really nice that the range takes us down to the deep starting position of a deadlift. Not lots of sports where that is possible.

Dev

17

For comparison sake we had a guy the other day, our best guy, hold 330 watts 1:42/500m for one hour. He’s 72kg (so 4.65ish w/kg) He’s our best guy among some really good guys…

For an undergrad? Whoa… I AM old…

18

Dev,

You officially have my permission to take Marty’s advice on this matter. Although it is still arguable some 20+ years later who the stronger starboard oarsman was in this picture, there can be no argument about who the more handsome fellow is…and still is to this day!!! :wink: I’m just not sure why I chose not to wear sunglasses that day. And so, I will graciously turn you over to Marty on this matter…especially since he’s a rowing coach by trade. Good luck!

Keith

http://i63.tinypic.com/123t6ol.jpg

19

I will have a lot more questions for you, but I assume that your body is perpendicular for most of the leg push and then once legs are almost at the locked position body opens up backwards, but what about at the very front of the catch. Is body perpendicular or leaning slightly forward?

20

Well in that case, Unfortunately, I suffered one too many beat downs in college from the Princeton heavies and Mr Crotty (and even more unfortunately, my former high school teammate who captained the ‘98 Princeton team and rubbed it in my face regularly!). You are in good hands with his counsel.