What CX tubulars will you run in 2015?

Triathlon Forum
1

I currently have 2 sets of tubulars (mavic reflex rims), one running Challenge Grifos and one running Challenge Limus.
I am going to upgrade one set to HED Ardennes rims with some nicer hubs and I am trying to decide what tires to run.

I think I will sell one set of the reflex wheels, probably the Grifos and keep the Limus for mud. The Limus run well in mud in my experience.
Options for the new wheels would be Grifos (they can be had in white, which would look sweet on my rig), Clement PDX or potentially Challenge Baby Limus.
The PDX is a nice all arounder (I run in on my clinchers), it is durable, runs wide (good thing in my book), but it is not very supple (120 tpi). It is a really popular tire out
here (I race in OR), so I’m tempted to go with that on the new rims and might be able to use if for everything. I really like the white Grifos based on looks, and the baby Limus is tempting, because
I really like the Limus tires and bet they would be even better on a wider rim. I did puncture a Limus last season on a section of sharp rocks.

What tires are you running in 2015. It’s almost time to smell the glue (smell the glove reference to Spinal Tap).

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Im not…But, Ive got a NEW set of S-Works 700x32 trigger tubulars if you’re looking for a less aggressive tread.

3

FMB Supermud for mud tires
FMB Slalom for all-around

Trying the Challenge Chicane for the first time…seems like everyone who rides them has good things to say, so we’ll see how it goes.

Limus and PDX seems like a lot overlap to me, but I don’t race in the PNW so maybe PDX is more suitable for all around conditions than they would be in the midwest. On hard/dry stuff big knobby tires always feel like they have noticeably less grip than a grifo/typhoon type tread IME.

4

I run the same Limus/Grifo combo in the southeast. The grifos were a holdover from when I only had a single tubular wheelset. If doing it over, I would keep the Limus for mud but pair them with a chicane or fango. I agree with the above that having a limus and pdx is too much overlap.

5

Limus is really slow in anything but heavy mud because it doesn’t have the continuous center tread block like the Rhino style (IE:PDX) tread types. PDX would be a much more versatile tire, and if you’re going to have just one tire, that’s about as good as it gets.
PDX in tubular doesn’t run wide like the clincher version.

I’ve run through at least a couple of sets of Rhinos, Super Muds, PDXs, and Limus, and…

  • Rhino and PDX are pretty darn similar. Roll as fast as a Grifo in a straight line, both lose traction in cornering on hard surfaces. PDX isn’t as supple as the Rhino, but it makes up for this by not rotting to pieces if you point a hose near it.
  • Super mud is almost as fast as the above in a straight line, and holds edge better on harder surfaces, but packs up with mud much faster. FMB pre-treats casings so they don’t rot nearly as easily as Dugast.
  • Limus is the slowest of the mud tires in anything but mud, and packs up quickly when conditions are sticky. Team edition casing is pretty darn close to FMB (and the first ones I had actually *were *made by FMB). If it’s really slow, and the mud is really sloppy, these tires will get grip when nothing else can, and this is when you’ll actually see a couple of the Euro guys switch to them, otherwise they’re on Rhinos.

Reason to run something like a Grifo or the Clement MXP isn’t that they’re faster rolling than the Rhino style (continuous center block takes care of that) it’s that their tread blocks aren’t as tall, so they don’t fold/squirm under cornering forces on harder surfaces. They also don’t pack up when the mud is sticky or mixed with grass which can be a real issue with the Limus in particular.

The white compound tires actually add a little bit of squirm back in to the equation because they’re softer. They also don’t wear nearly as well as the carbon black compounds, but they may function better on ice and in below freezing type conditions. I ran silica based tires on the Bend courses the ice bowl year, and even if it was psychological, was glad I had them. Wouldn’t run them as an every day tire. Have seen tread blocks blow out of white compound FMB tires on the first ride.

If your Limus tires are a couple of seasons old, you’re probably already running the baby Limus. It’s really just the limus pattern with lower center blocks. Ride a Limus on the trainer for a few hours and you’re pretty much on one.

If you’re going to have two sets of wheels, it’s still just really hard to go wrong with a Grifo pattern tire and a Rhino pattern tire. When 100% of the euro-based pros are choosing the same 2 basic patterns, it’s probably a good call.

Personally, after yet another early summer day of inspecting my wheels and finding that I lost a couple of tires to rot over the off-season, I’m probably going to run Clement MXP & PDX and the new TUFO cubus variation as an intermediate. Just don’t want to deal with cotton casings anymore, and they’re really so close in performance now that it’s not worth doing so.

M

Ramblings about CX, and the CXWOTD

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I’m throwing a Challenge Grifo in the rear and a Limus in the front. That should give me ample traction up in the front and not have the problem of rolling two dank ass tires. I only have one set of 'cross wheels so I gotta make em count regardless of weather.

edit: after reading the above comments I may look at rolling dual clement PDX tires.

7

Ran FMB SSC for all around tires for 3 years… loved them in all conditions. Last year I was tempted by a great deal on PDX and ran them… not nearly as supple and nice as the FMB.

Have you seen the article on Jpow’s tire choices? it talks about all the testing he did to find the right tires… pretty interesting.

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No but you’ve gained my curiosity. I typed in “jeremy powers tires” in google and the first article that showed up was why he switched to FMB in 2015. Is that what you’re talking about?

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FWIW, when folks on here talk about “testing”, in particular of tires, I think they’re more likely than not visualizing something like the work AFM or Tom A. have done.

That ain’t what we’re talking about here, not by a long stretch.

Not to knock it, but what Powers did in this regard can be best characterized as Intensely subjective analysis.

M

Ramblings about CX, and the CXWOTD

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I ran grifos Lat year, but will probably try PDXs this year due to their durability.

11

Ran Tufo Flexus Primus 32s with sealant last year with quite a bit a success (mostly dry racing in Texas. A few mud baths though).

Plan to try Clement MXP 33s this year. People seem to love them.

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So you obviously know your tires. Thanks for your insight.

As I read your evaluation, it sounds like you aren’t a real big fan of Limus, except in very specific conditions.

I wasn’t sure if the white compound grifos was that different. It sounds like it is, so cosmetics be damned, probably need to pass on these.

Honestly, here in September there is a lot of almost concrete hard dried dirt, often with some loose sand or even gravelly stuff on top. It seems like nothing can really corner well on this type of surface. Even the grass is yellow and burned out. It honestly just sucks and I would love to be back east and get some nice grass. I am willing to push grass corners because there isn’t a penalty, but when you lay it down on the hard dirty surface you end up with road rash. Then when it rains starting in October we can get some hideous mud. I felt like the Limus generally had good grip even in bad conditions, but again, without trying different tires and even different pressures, I couldn’t really say that something else would not be better.

My only reservation with the FMBs is how durable are they? I can spend the money, but even so I would probably cry if I flatted one. I also use glue and Belgian tape, so gluing up tires is a chore. I want to be able to mount tires and run at least 2 seasons without touching them or getting a flat.

So what would your recommendation be for someone who will have 2 sets of tubulars? Sounds like Grifo and Rhino? I am a strength/power/fitness type CX rider, my liability is cornering (loosing too much speed), so I would sacrifice some straight line speed for better grip in the corners, because that is where I am losing ground. How much do you think going from a Reflex to a Ardennes (wide rim) will help?

Does anyone besides Dugast make a Rhino tread? FMB? Who sells them?

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edit: after reading the above comments I may look at rolling dual clement PDX tires.

for one tire all year that would be my choice. although I can’t fault the front limus/rear grifo when things start to get a bit intermediate. I’ve more than made up for any short comings of the front limus on the straights and dry sections in a handful of muddy corners when everyone else is running something less aggressive.

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This is probably just my ignorance, but I would have thought you would want the knobbier tire in back for traction purposes.
It sounds like you are running the more aggressive tread up front for cornering purposes? Is the idea to “plant” the turn with the front tire and tolerate a little slide in the rear?
It sounds like on the course you describe (a few muddy corners) this would work, but in all mud or a where there was mud on an incline you would need more traction in the rear.

15

Sorry, should have been more clear. when I say “Rhino” I really mean “Rhino-style tread pattern”. PDX is essentially a Rhino.

I really do like the Limus, have a couple of team issue version in 30 section, and they’re just killer in certain types of mud. They’re just not great all-around tires.

FMBs are definitely more durable than Dugast, and in some ways they’re actually more durable than the Clement. Tufo makes the Clement tires, and like all Tufo tires, they’re tubeless, with a bladder vulcanized directly to the inside of the casing. This means there is only one layer of protection, so a sidewall cut means - even a small one - means you get a flat. Sealant helps, but still…
Big advantage to the Clement/Tufo tires is that they aren’t cotton, so they don’t rot, and the base tape is rock solid. I don’t care how good you are at taking care of them, if you use cotton tires long enough, you’re eventually going to have some dry rot on you, and your’e eventually going to have the base tape fail on one of 'em. Or you’re going to just routinely replace your tires.

2 sets of tubulars, I would probably go for a set of PDX and a set of MXP, both from Clement. You’d be set for just about anything, and you’d have the lowest likelihood of tire failure over time.

I think the wider rims probably help a little bit, but more with tire adhesion than performance. Tire cross section isn’t affected by rim width when using tubulars as it is with clinchers. That said, It may be that tires tend to fold a little bit less in cornering with the wide rims, but the width of a reflex tubular is already greater than that of an open pro clincher (21.5 compared to 19.5) so you only gain 2.5 mm moving to the Ardennes.

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Loose over hard is the worst for cornering (as you’ve found out). Have you looked at FMB Gripo XL or Schwalbe Racing Ralph? Both are more of a mtb type tread. Those tires would be considered knobby compared to Grifo/Typhoon type treads, but the knobs are more designed for the type of conditions you’re describing rather than all-out mud. So they roll and corner a bit better in dry than an Limus/PDX but get some more grip than a Grifo in the conditions your describing. Might be a good compromise for an all-around type tire for your conditions.

17

PDX in tubular doesn’t run wide like the clincher version.

Ramblings about CX, and the CXWOTD

They do not run as wide as the clincher, but they stretch the limits for a tubular.
I spend a good amount of time in UCI pits. The officials often have the squeeze the Clements into the jig. I’ve had a conversation with one that basically came down to “They always fit, but barely, by far the tightest of all the brands”. Now, this is splitting hairs, but they’re certainly wider than Challenge and Specialized.

I’m actually super impressed with the Clements. Before I ran them I succumbed to the “Not supple” line of thought. I thought they’d be slow rolling and have poor traction. In my experience, This hasn’t been the case. When you have good, stout, tread patterns you do not have to rely on the casing to give you traction (e.g. A Grifo has a terrible pattern, so you need to run it soft and supple for it to hook up). My Clements have been incredibly confidence inspiring and I’d reach for them over my FMB supermuds (Blasphemous, I know).

Pete Webber has summed it up best: No one ever lost a CX race because they had too much traction.

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So part of this comes down to the amount of money and time you have to throw at this.
Sky’s the limit no questions asked best performance (and I think you’re talking a marginal edge over the Clements below):
1 set of FMB pro SSC. The sidewall is slightly stiffer (and more durable), but you’ll want that as speeds are faster with a grifo type tread.
1 set of FMB super muds (NOT the pro super-mud) as the sidewall is a bit softer, but the mud races are slow. Beg, borrow steal a pit bike and run your pdx clinchers on the other bike.
This can last 2-3 seasons (prob 1-2 though), depending on your riding style and how buffed out the courses you race on are. 10 years ago when CX was still working out the kinks it was borderline wasteful to run hand made tires as the courses were just dumb at times. Now that things are a bit more refined the “jungle cross” venues are almost totally gone. They are sweet tires and the pre-latex treatement means they are not near the headache. Keep some Barge cement on hand to re-stick down base tape.

What I run with due to time and dollar constraints (coming into my 4th season on the same tires!):
1 set of MXPs, 1 set of PDX. Run low, 17-25 psi but our venues are great, I’m pretty careful and the course is generally pretty buffed out by the time we race. It’s pretty hard to fold a clement in a corner.
For 75% of courses, I run the CO CX mullet (PDX F/ MXP R). The thought here is that you always want to back wheel to slide first (so you can save it). Also the MXP holds up better to wear, and might roll just a bit faster.
If it is really hard packed, dry grass, sand, packed snow (ice) or marbles-over-hard, I run MXP/MXP. The mxp has a much more predicable drift than the PDX. When the PDX lets go, it happens pretty fast usually followed by your face hitting the deck.
If muddy or deep & melting snow, PDX/PDX. I use a pit bike with PDX clinchers & latex tubes. A pit bike, ANY pit bike is must in deep, thick mud. I’ve used a size 53 & 140mm stem (I’m 6-1!) at a mud race for a lap or two to get the a-bike unclogged. Think of it as an investment in saving you from buying a new derailleur, hanger, wheel, chain when you clog and suck the rear mech into your spokes (but I’m not bitter).

Warning: Having one set of wide rims and one set of narrow rims is going to be a huge pain in the ass and result in sub-optimal breaking (if you are running rim breaks). Yes, you can adjust the cantilever quickly on the fly, but the angle of pad/rim will not be right. I think lots of the “discs-are-better” is the result of folks training on 20mm wide clinchers then shoving a 25mm wide carbon rim for race day without spending 15 minutes to adjust the pad/rim interface. I really like the velocity major tom with 105 or ultegra hubs. Also use the same size cassette.

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I have been really happy with Challenge tires that last couple years. I live in California where it’s mostly dry so I have been running Grifo on one set of wheels and Grifo file tread on the other. That has been super successful even while traveling to semi-muddy locations. I raced USGP in Madison a few years ago in the rain on Grifo and they were great. I’ve used Linus in the past as well - but found for here Grifo was sufficient.

This year I’m putting on all new tires and am going to go with Baby Linus for mud and Chicane for dry. The one thing I didn’t really like about Grifo file tread is there was no side grip at all and Chicane addresses that.

20

Now, this is splitting hairs, but they’re certainly wider than Challenge and Specialized.

So, oddly enough, I was given a dozen Challenge Team Issue tires the season before last, and the measured widths at 30psi (I measure all my tires) were…

29,29,31,32,32,32.5,33,33,33,33.5,34,35,35

Specialized Terra - 31.5, 32 (only have the two)

Every Clement PDX I’ve measured (a bunch of them) - 32.8 (actual casing) 33.3 Tread lugs at widest point.