Here’s a question that’s been bothering me and I realized there’s a lot of smart people here who can help me answer it.
All marathon training guides/plans/etc. tell you that for your weekly long run, you need to run long for slower than your race pace. Many recommend that you run much slower (see Runnersworld.com).
What if you are trying to make a big improvement in your speed for the run portion of your IM?
I have run a 3:40 marathon alone (many years ago), have run a 41 minute 10k, but ran a 4:12 in my last Ironman (total time 10:33). I have the “capability” according to marathon pace calculators to run better than a 3:10 (another goal for another time).
For IM Germany this summer, I would like to run a 3:30 off the bike (big-time improvement). Pace wise, that’s only 5 min/km, which I am capable of. So, the question is, for my long runs right now (which are 2+ hours), what pace should I be running? The nice, slow kind of long run pace recommended for marathon training, say 5:30 min/km which just feels way too easy or push it up to 4:50’s? If I can hold the higher pace, is there a reason not too? Or does doing my long runs at a higher pace improve my ability to run long, faster?
And yes, I do speed work once/week and hill training as well. I do my long run on tired legs (long ride on Saturdays/long run on Sundays). The question is specifically about how to approach pacing for my weekly long run.
Is there a right answer? What do you think?
Essentially it boils down to, to improve your IM run, do you do your weekly long runs slower than desired race pace, equal to desired race pace or faster?
To improve your Ironman Marathon…RIDE MORE! Seriously. Most people run “slow” at Ironman because they either:
Paced incorrectly
Ate/drank incorrectly
Didn’t have ME necessary for the total race duration (often exacerbated by inadequate ME on the bike)
Spend more time on the bike and your run times will improve.
With that said, I’d do your long runs mid-week on fresher legs and I’d do them in your aerobic HR (whatever pace that equals). Long runs this time of year are for building aerobic base and developing your tendons and muscles for the training ahead. You can move onto race-specific training in May.
I have had the same question for a while now. What has worked for me is to have two long runs every week. I run real long and slow on sundays (this week 22) and on thursdays I run long tempo runs (this week 13). Eventually I will build to 20 mile tempo runs and 30 mile long runs. That way all of the bases are covered. This has worked well for me in the past for IM and marathon training. eddie.
i have found that the pace at which i comfortably do my long runs correlates pretty well to my ironman run pace. i think the key is to do them at a pace that is sustainable and doesn’t require so much recovery that you can’t do your other sessions during the week. that pace is what it is. you have to train according to where you are, not where you want to be. with consistency, that pace should improve. so if you can do 5’00/km and feel pretty good about it, i certainly wouldn’t slow down.
i also feel it’s valuable to do the long run the day after the long bike, or even after two big bike days. you are training to run on tired legs. doing it mid week doesn’t give you the same stimulus. again, this is somewhat dependent on recovery considerations, but i think many people underestimate their ability to recover, or just don’t give themselves the chance to.
That’s a lot of miles/time. Another training program might alternate super-long and slow runs with med-long tempo runs: Run 18 to 30 mi. for LR, 1-2 min. slower than race pace, then next week’s LR could be 12-18 mi., with most of it at race pace. This works for many people.
That sounds suspiciously like my coach’s response to the same question. Run as hard as you like but finish the workout such that you are ready to do the next one on the schedule (i.e. don’t kill yourself).
Being an engineer, I like to analyze things to death and have trouble accepting the “run the way you feel, be consistent and the improvement will follow” philosophy. Not that it’s wrong - it makes a lot of sense.
I think I’m probably way to damn goal-oriented and have too much time to think during my long runs! : )
I hear you, man. Lots of bike miles are going on in parallel to the runs and I have prided myself on getting my nutrition right in previous races.
Guess I’m just getting impatient and want to go hard on my long runs. Just not sure if its the right thing to do. I kind of like the idea above of mixing it up, but the post above seems like way too many miles.
How much weekly mileage do you really need to show that run improvement?
I should add that I believe in having runners run on “fresh” legs to prevent injury. Running long on fatigued legs is a recipe for injury (which will definitely slow your progress).
As for total miles, I think you can run very well at Ironman with a peak week in the mid-50s (4 runs), build/base weeks in the 30s (3 runs), and very early-season weeks in the high 20s (3 runs).
I NEVER recommend that an athlete training for Ironman run longer than 19 miles (or 3 hours). The recovery required greatly impacts your additional training. I’d rather my athletes go over-distance in the swim/bike and work cadence/nutrition for the run.
As you can see, my philosophy is based upon a swim/ride focus while ensuring injury risks (from running) are minimized. That’s why long runs are mid-week and capped.
BTW, I think HR and “pace” are the same thing in IM training. Your 5+ hour ride pace is based upon HR as is your long run.
Here’s my 2 cents as I see a few different issues.
In order to run fast off the bike, you must be able to ride EFFICIENTLY. Net result - bike more. You can’t expect your body to perform standalone pace at IM. The 3:40 to 4:12 sounds in the general range of performance at IM. Do “more” bricks, not necessary longer. Long run should not be after a long bike, nor the day after. Your long run is your long run, not meant to build upon your previous day’s fatigue.
Pace calculator say 3:10, but you run 3:40. Need more endurance work to keep pace with your speed workouts. For stand alone marathons, I’d suggest running over 26.2 miles. However, that’s not needed for IM.
I’m not so sure analyzing stand alone marathon to IM marathon means much. I’ve seen many top gun (sub 2:45) run in at 4:30 at IM… It’s a different animal.
I totally agree with Puskas. Ride more if you wanna run fast off the bike. No amount of running will save you if you are trashed after a 5:30 ride. If you are cooked, you are cooked…there is no “coming back” in an Ironman. If you can’t fit in lot of long riding, I have found that 3-4 hour riding at >Ironman race pace, coupled with leg weight training (squats, leg extensions, step ups, hamstring curls, high reps, moderate weight) as part of the program works quite well to ensure a strong run off the bike.
If you can’t squeeze in a mid week long run on fresh legs (I can’t see why a triathlete can’t find 2 to 2.5 hours mid week, especially if you use early morning or late evening), then go for the Sat long run, Sun long ride combination. Running long on trashed legs, just promotes poor form, poor technique and ensuing injuries. Better do it on fresh legs. If you enter a few half Ironmans, before your Ironman, you’ll have ample opportunity to get used to running off the bike with trashed legs. Running long on Sat and then riding long on trashed legs on Sunday will also make the race day ride on fresh legs seem really easy.
A huge component of IM run performance revolves around your IM bike fitness.
How you run in an IM will be directly affected by how much the bike take sout of you. Pacing in an IM bike is key and know that many don’t get it right. Thus, many run slow. Not because they are slow runners - they have left their running legs on the bike.
My feeling is that there is a strong correlation between the running pace that you have run at the most over the course of a few years( because you have been training for a number of years, right) and your best-case-scnerio Im race pace. ie. If over a 4 year period you have run most of your miles at 8:00 min/mile pace, then all things considered, you may be able to hold that pace in a marathon in an IM.
Hills are huge. I have come to the conclusion that you can’t EVER run too many hills when getting ready for an IM
get used to running tired - thus run bricks, run long the day after long rides etc . .
KNow that standalone marathon time very often is a poor indicator of how you will run in an IM marathon. Almost a completely different game.
I’ll be a dissenting voice and I’m sure some will not agree. I advise to do your long runs on another day, other than the one after a long ride. I think many athletes make a big mistake in trying to teach themselves to run on tired legs. If you can run on fresh legs you can run on tired legs and vice versa. In order to run faster you need to do faster running, running on tired legs does not accomplish that. On long run days the goal is to run long, but to run long faster you need to do some faster running, IMO, during your long runs. Figure out your goal marathon pace and do some of the second half of your long runs at that pace if not a few seconds per mile faster.
FWIW, I’ve trained with many pro’s in the past and none ever said they were trying to teach themselves to run on tired legs and I doubt you’ll ever hear any saying that they will be doing that in the future. Also if you talk to lots of other coaches you’ll find the term brick tossed around less and less and transition runs of 30 min or so being talked about more and more.
OMG NO DON’T RUN MORE THAN 22 MILES EVAR! (Ok, sarcasm mode off )
I typically do a similar schedule for my long runs and medium runs. Usually Wednesday or Thursday is a medium 7-13 mile distance, and I alternate weekends for either a big bike or big run (100+ or 20+ respectively). I find that I get injured really easy if I run long the day after a long bike, so I don’t even try. Bricks…no problem, but the next day for me is dangerous. I also try to put in a 5k run after every bike, just to get used to running out of transition. The other days during the week are for either speedwork or my typical 20 mile recovery ride course, but none of them are long days.
I hear your point but we’re getting a little off topic and back to the same thread that’s been hashed many times before on this forum. I think we all can agree to disagree on which day to run, whether to run on Sat or Sunday or midweek (I’ve watched these threads but have chosen not to contribute because I’m happy with my approach in this regard).
I understand that you need to work on ME for good run performance off the bike by biking lots and I do. The question was really just about long run pacing. Follow the marathon training philisophy of slower than race pace or run it at desired IM race pace (obviously somewhat slower than marathon pace)?
Or maybe that’s the answer - slower than marathon pace is what IM pace turns out to be.
But if I’m aiming for a much improved time, do you aim for the improved time or aim at what you are capable of now?
What do you mean by a transition run of 30 minutes? Isn’t that just a short brick?
I assume you’re just getting off the bike and running for that first 30 minutes to train your legs how to switch sports. This sounds like a new name to something I’ve done for a long time.
Is this after your long rides or other times?
Damn, now I’m being drawn into this other discussion. Its so easy to get distracted in here - maybe it was better when I just quietly listened to all of the chatter instead of contributing.
Very good point with which I totally agree. I don’t buy the “running on tired legs” concept at all. The key is running conditioning and in order to improve you need to run “fresh”. What makes or breaks an IM run is the ability to put your running into gear after the bike. So it’s a question of being able to “forget” about the bike in the first 15-20min of running and run like normally for the rest of the marathon.
The concept Brian is trying to convey is that you need to learn how to switch on your running after yuor long rides. That is the purpose of those transition runs. On race day what you need to do is to be able to run like it’s a normal, fresh, long run after the bike. The transition runs help you do that. Bricks with a running emphasys are being used less and less.
There is part of what you are saying that I agree with, but I would say that at the most there is only about a 1/3 of an IM run that I would say you are running, “normal”
For the first 1/3 you are trying to cover ground while at the same time getting ovber the fatigue of the bike. My legs never felt normal during this time. Then, somewhere betwen 5 and 10 miles, you start to feel like you are just running - normally. If you are lucky this feeling will last until about 20 miles. Somewhere between 15 - 20 miles the cumalative fatigue of the day, starts to kick in and it starts to become a grind - often a real grind and to maintain pace you need to dig deeper than you ever have dug. This does not feel like normal running as it feels like you are recuiting every muscle fiber in your body to move the body down the road. Hard to simulate this final stage in training, but running tired, I think can help.
The easier the bike was on you, the sooner you’re able to get your running legs back. Experience and number of IM races also helps with that.
But where I think experience and number of IM races come into play are for that last 10k/6miles. In order to survive those last miles, it’s where experience will come into play simply because the ONLY way to train for that is to have race it before. And the specific adaptations in order to to do that are there, built up by the previous races. Running on tired legs isn’t quite the same and in this case, if it’s not, then why use it…
It took me three IM races before I was really able to nail the run. To really know how to deal with the final 10K in particular, because even when you are feeling “good”, well placed and passing people, it’s a journey into hell!
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