Be interested in hearing how others deal with this issue: the balance between volume (maintaining run frequency of 5x a week + putting in the miles on the bike) and being less fatigued/ready for key workouts - long ride/run brick, long run, bike intervals in particular. I usually do bike intervals (2 x 20’ or 4 x 10’ or hill repeats) on Tuesday, long run (2:00-2:30) Wednesday and long ride/run brick (100-115/3-5) on Saturday and a second shorter hilly long ride (40-60) + trail run (1:00-1:30) on Sunday then build everything around that. Issue for me is keeping run frequency/volume up around these sessions while being recovered enough to hit the key workouts fresh enough to do them right. Wondering what other’s philosophies are on this kind of stuff and what the priorities should be?
My feeling is that it’s going to be dependant on your seasonal volume to date and your career volume totals. If overall volume is relativly high, then it may be best to focus on key benchmark or specific IM workouts. If overall volume is low, then it may be better to reasonably build up volume to a specific level prior to beginning your taper.
Gordo just had an interesting blog entry on this very topic. It’s a good read. This was always my goal and it’s his advice to. These are the key foundation blocks. In seperate workouts: You need to get to the point where you can swim 4K non stop and it’s comfortable most of the way. You need to get to the point where you can ride 180K and it’s comfortable for you most of the way. And you need to be able to run 30K or 2 1/2 to 3 hours( whatever comes first) and it’s comfortable for you most of the way.
Assume decent volume through the srping so you can complete a 4K swim, 180K bike, 30K run (separately, of course) relatively comfortably, BUT your ability to hold a good pace (or do intervals at or slightly above race pace - assume 10-11 hr range finisher) is impeded by recovery issues? Where do you strike the balance there? Right now I am leaning towards getting the runs in even if it leaves me a a bit worn for my key workouts because I know the second half of the IM run is what it will all come down to and the only way it seems to build the strength needed to stay steady through that part of the race is frequency.
I know the second half of the IM run is what it will all come down to and the only way it seems to build the strength needed to stay steady through that part of the race is frequency.
Agreed. It may not be pretty, but this IS the key to success in an IM - running well and strongly in the second half of the run. This is where you can make HUGE gains, if for no other reason than everyone else is falling apart. Doing well here is about two things - proper pacing on the bike and an ability to run well when really tired and feeling like crap!! That’s why frequency is so potent a protocol when it comes to run training - by forcing you to run 5 - 6 days week, you are likley doing some of those runs on very tired legs, so you get used to and efficient at running when tired and feeling lousy.
There are some that say you should only do run workouts on fresh legs to maximize that workout. That’s fine and there is a place for that somewhere in the yearly run training cycle, but when you reach the 10 mile mark of an IM run your legs are going to be feeling far from fresh and you have to somehow keep turning them over for another 16 miles!!
Hey Jack…it really is not that hard…people get too bent out of joint about specific workouts. What matters is overall volume at close to Ironman race intensity or higher…but while going easy enough that you can get up and do tomorrow’s workout. Just go by this…450-500 kpw biking, 60-90 kpw running…chop it up in whatever chunks you need to chop it into to make it happen in the context of your life and day to day responsiblities. Try to cram 7-15K of swimming in around all of this…repeat this for 6 weeks or so…you’ll be ready. There really is no rocket science…train at Ironman race pace whenever possible in all sports…sometimes train harder. That should cover it! Try to get as much sleep as humanly possible. When you feel like crap, back off the intensity.
Fleck…did I miss anything? Jack was ~ 5 hours at Wildflower, so the guy has the legs to put in some serious volume and moderate intensity.
Dev
Ok, follow up question: if during the build period you are only hitting like 350-400k biking and 50k running a week does it make sense to decrease/cut out intensity, intervals, etc. to allow better/quicker recoveries so as one can up the total volume to the numbers Dev listed (b/c the issue for such an athlete remains overall endurance which is best addressed by volume/frequency?) or is the better practice to keep the intensity (IM pace and slightly above), do what you can and gradually build volume to those numbers in coming years/seasons using each past season as the base for the next? Or does it all just depend on the individual?
It makes total sense to me, based on logic and my limited experience, that the underlying and relative simple premise of IM training is to just do alot of volume at IM pace (or slightly above IM pace) but not so much you can’t recover for tomorrow’s workout. That said, it seems to me a discussion of how to exactly how to execute this philosophy (weekly sequence of sessions that have worked for experienced IMers, experience with experimenting shifts in balance between volume + intensity, minimum base numbers you want to be hitting before adding any intensity, etc) would form the very foundation for continuing to improve from season to season and over the course of years.
I’ll provide the dissenting opinion, just for discussion’s sake.
Swim training - ok, not gonna talk about something I know nada about. Move along, nothing to see here…
Bike training - volume is overrated. I did 2 IM’s last year on an avg of < 100m /wk biking. I think I only had one week over 200m (240, which was 4 rides: 10m, 10m, 120m, 100m)
Yes, you will need to get in some long rides. These are good for beating you into submission with your aero position, practicing nutrition, etc. That’s what Sat and Sun are for.
Shorter, and medium length sessions, with a good amt of intensity, are at least as effective as slogging along for hrs on end in Z1 and Z2. If you want to ride fast in racing, you have to ride fast in training.
The shorter you ride, the harder you ride. But this doesn’t give you a free pass to noodle along on your long rides, you should be pushing decently hard for them too. This way, the bike leg of an IM will feel like a day off compared to the training you’ve done to prepare for it.
Run training - frequency is your friend. The weekly long run (1.5-2.5 hrs) is the key workout, everything else is filler, for frequency (and yes, some additional volume)
YMMV, of course.
PS - My IM PB is :03 seconds faster than Dev’s - hahaha!!!
I would say that for most people IM pace sessions are not that taxing until the volume gets fairly significant. The paces for all three sports one can maintain for IM distances are such that they often don’t vary that much from people’s day to day training pace, particularly on the run. I don’t see the conflict between volume and IM paced sessions. One can certainly debate the relative importance of volume versus intensity in an IM training plan but the intensity there would be a good bit higher.
Bike training - volume is overrated.
Agree with ML. Riding the long rides relatively hard is key. In reviewing my power files in build for IMFL last year, I noticed several of my long rides had TSS greater than my IM ride even though they were shorter, longest at 104. Eganski also mentioned the importance of intensity on the long ride.
Run training - frequency is your friend.
ML, what type frequency do you mean here? Do you include any tempo intensity or track workouts?
Hi Jack, based on Wildflower, I would say you need more running per week than 50K. You need to add a few more runs per week at the expense of run “intervals”. Make sure all your runs are Ironman race pace. Also for riding, we’re not talking about puttering around. The shorter the ride the higher the intensity. Your long rides should be at your Ironman race pace…short rides will be harder…no puttering around. Finally don’t forget about the swim…I saw you swim and you need to work that…I realize that Doug is not here to help you anymore, but that in itself is a good reason to swim hard and with good technique…because Doug would want it.
I’m not a run guru, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last nite, but here’s worked for me:
I did zero track workouts. Or intervals. Only tempo or faster stuff was some open run races.
I did do some strides for form work, I think they are very helpful.
The one other thing I do that’s somewhat atypical is, I do my weekly long run as z2 (steady) vs. z1 (easy), when the majority of folks do the opposite. Definitely a YMMV type thing.
My silly-easy run pace (8 mins / mile) ='s a “fast” AG’er IM race pace, so my long run was actually more like HIM race pace.
I’d often giggle to myself when cruising along in my shorter, easier runs, when I realized that “hey, if I can run this speed in an IM mary, I’ll be an AG hero”.
IM running isn’t anything about fast. It’s about running strong, running tough, not slowing down (too much).
(It’s also about bike strength, and proper pacing and nutrition.)
Frequency = 's # of times / week you run. I typically run 4-7, with 5-6 being average.
1 long (12-22m)
1-2 medium (8-10m)
2-4 short (2-6m), often as a T-run.
I think there is something to be said about ML’s Z2 2 hour runs. The bottom line is that if you want to run an Ironman run fast, the final 16 miles is going to feel more like Z3 if you are actually moving at 8 min per mile or less…so ML’s approach makes total sense…he is used to carrying a high workload for a long time and when he comes to IM race day, he can blow by all the Z1 posers (like myself).
OK, my connection from Orlando to Ottawa via Philly got canned last nite at 1:30 am…I have to wait till 3 pm to get on the next available flt home…I’m stuck in a Quality Inn somewhere in Gloucester City New Jersey 25 min from Philly Airport, so I will head out for an ML approved Z2 90 min run…what else is a triathlete supposed to do stranded in a strange city, dying to get home to the family and his bike 
Dev
Dev, big thanks for the insight + counsel. Totally and completely agree about the swimming - I “need to work that” is a kind way of putting it. Things are moving ever so slowly in the right direction there (went from 39 at WF to 32 at Eagleman, though the current didn’t hurt) - really need to find a good coach in NYC as my form is still quite “weak” at best. I’ve swam every day this week thinking about Doug and it has been helpful on alot of levels.
As for the running, I also completely agree and that is my long term plan. I have been building the volume I can handle steadily over the last 4 years - last year 25 miles a week with bike training was my limit, this year its 30-35, hoping next year to get around 40 where I think I will be reaching the limits of my potential, whatever that might be. Last 3 HIM runs have been pretty consistent and going in the right direction (1:36, 1:35, 1:34), but in each one I slowed a fair bit the last 4 miles so I am hoping the additional volume will not only help me at IM but also finish stronger at HIM.
As for the bike, I do my long rides at IM and HIM pace (3-5 x 40 IM/20 HIM pace) but while it makes sense not to have junk miles (no puttering around) my schedule usually allows me to ride sort of long both days on the weekend with much less time during the week so I usually do an easier long ride on Sunday to put more miles in. Given what I am hearing here, I am no longer sure how much it helps training-wise since I am usually pretty fried from saturday’s long ride, but I like being outside and riding better than anything else I’d be doing on most Sundays!
J,
Read through my latest blog. I think that your arrangement of your basic week may be generating the majority of your fatigue.
You basically have two key runs–your long run and your 2nd longest run. The others should be easy-steady and of moderate duration. As others have said building run volume through frequency is the easiest and safest way. During your season, you will have times of specific overload, where your main focus will be running. These periods will take the form of “just getting through them” while you build up your strength and durability, similar to what Dev said.
Make sure all your runs are Ironman race pace.
Dev and others, how does one doing his first IM now what his IM run pace should be around? Can you take half-Im pace + XX time to get a pace to train at? Is there some general guideline?
Trying to figure out what your run pace will be in an IM by converting a Half IM or open marathon time does not give you a good indication. The reality is this, the only way you will know is to race. The more IM’s you complete, the easier it is to dial in your pace.
The one thing you can do, is determine if you are under-peforming. What is your AeT pace? If it is say, 7:00/mile and you average 10:00/mile for the IM, you swam and biked too hard.
If you have done an open Mary, you can take you open Mary time and add about 30 minutes (it is of course close to the “ideal pace”).
I am not sure about using the 1/2 Mary 1/2 IM pace. Traditionally, you take your open 1/2 Mary time multiple by 2 and add 10/15 mins and you get your open Mary time (and therefore pace). You probably want to add a bit more than 10/15 mins (maybe 30?) to factor in the extra 2KMs swim and 90KMs run using your 1/2 Mary 1/2 IM time?
Fred.
I was afraid that was going to be the answer Thanks for the qucik response!
I just asked the same question to Gordo Byrn on our way back from a weekend training trip and that is was his response. It’s hard because it takes several IM races and race similation workouts to dial in appropriate efforts. It is one of those things where you may end up having to race below your limits in order to figure out what that limit is. If you guess, and end up racing above, you are in for a long hike.
**If you guess, and end up racing above, you are in for a long hike. **
I’ve done that in a few open marathons and it was no fun at all. Thanks for the advice.