So I’ve been back and forth trying to find a good position on my P3 for some time now and got a retul fit a couple of weeks back. Ended up changing the orginial 90 stem for a 60 stem but the retul fitter still says that the reach is a little bit long… I did ask a similar question earlier and I got feedback that my posture is terrible and I’m not rotating my hips… Others have said I should lower the cockpit which I also tried - it did feel quite good but my hips felt kinda squeezed, like I was unable to generate power. The first thing the retul fitter did was actually raising the 3T bar again.
I just can’t understand what seems to be the issue… Based on the info I got from the fitter I started wondering about changing cockpit or perhaps changing bike as I’ve read that Cervelo’s can be quite long… So, using my retul fit and checking other bikes I’m quite baffled… I might be totally wrong here, but wouldn’t my Pad Y & X be something like 441 and 689mm - and as I should have a even shorter reach (according to my fitter), close to no bikes fit? I’ve been looking into Scott Plasma, Cervelo P5 (54 size), Canyon Speedmax and so on… I must be completely off here? I talked with canyon and they suggested a large frame which from the specifications provided looks like it has MORE reach than the P3.
Attached retul report and pic of my last race a couple of weeks ago with the retul fit position. I can do a better photo/video if it’s no good.
Really looks like you are fitted as if that P3 was a road bike… everything just looks shifted rearwards.
Retul is nothing but a tool, what you really are paying for is the fitters knowledge and ability to translate that to the best fit for YOU. I’m not knocking the fitter, but looking at the picture and the recommendations you got, it makes me wonder…
Definitely need more reach, there is no way that your reach is still too long, and maybe lower the cockpit some, its kind of hard to tell from the pic but I wouldn’t be going to that fitter anymore.
I have only been doing this a couple years. But I know from going through multiple fits and what I’ve learned through slowtwitch this is not a good bike fit… bigly
Others have said I should lower the cockpit which I also tried - it did feel quite good but my hips felt kinda squeezed, like I was unable to generate power. The first thing the retul fitter did was actually raising the 3T bar again.
When you lowered the bars, did you adjust the saddle to accommodate? If not, I can appreciate why you felt squeezed. The picture that Slowman created years ago captures how your saddle position should change with more drop to maintain the same hip angle. Right now it seems like you are the ‘green’ outline. Simply dropping your aerobars without moving your saddle forwards and up would really close the hip angle.
Are you on a 54cm P3 right now? For your height (184cm), even a 90mm stem seems kinda short for a frame that would already be on the small side of your fit range.
are you set up on your bike according to the retul report? i ask because people here are complaining about your scrunched cockpit, but the report says you should have an “armpad reach” of 460mm, and they measure to the back of the pad. that’s not consistent with a scrunched cockpit. that’s about 500mm to pad-center.
now, it could LOOK scrunched because your pads are so high. just, i’m wondering if the bike is set up as per the report.
Yeah, the photo is me racing in the position exactly as per the retul report. The fitter did advise me to raise the seat by 0,5cm but I needed spacers for the 3T aura bar which I received yesterday. So yesterday I raised the seat 5mm and added the 10mm spacers. Here’s a much better photo just now.
Here’s a photo with the 90mm orginal stem, no further adjust per above photo.
It’s a 2016 (or 2015) Cervelo P3 size 56 with 170mm crank.
i am so glad you found and posted that diagram, because it points out the one obvious pitfall that most be avoided when body angles drive the fit. all of the three riders in that diagram conform, because they all exhibit identical body angles. this metric is independent of the horizon.
this is why i wrote an article some weeks back explaining why HX is the metric i watch most of the time, most often, during a fit. i have not found that HX is a metric retul fitters are trained to look at. now, part of the reason is that neither HX nor any other cockpit measure (reach, pad x) is a deliverable when using retul’s fit bike. this is my main problem with that tool.
you can have body angles that conform, while still ending up with an pad x that is too short, or an armrest elevation which is anemic (90mm off a 800mm saddle height, in this case).
Remember, fit is about maintaining an optimal hip angle.
Following the Slowman diagram above:
as you raise your bars, you should consider moving your saddle back and lowering it. (…remember, this is to maintain effective hip angles)
as you lower your bars, your saddle should come forwards and raised.
It’s great that you’re willing to adapt your fit. Work incrementally towards something like the Fabian Cancellara position. It’s very possible to create an aerodynamic and comfortable fit.
I’ve read countless articles and looked through all the videos and pictures of bikefit’s etc. but I just can’t figure it all out. I’ve also been trying with the bikefit app to check angles etc.
So my position looks a lot better in these pictures, sorry for the first very bad picture which then was very misleading.
Am I to conclude that the 60mm stem is a good fit and the bike is a good fit? I should just look into lowering the front to get a more flat back while keeping the angles I have now per the retul fit?
I’ve read countless articles and looked through all the videos and pictures of bikefit’s etc. but I just can’t figure it all out. I’ve also been trying with the bikefit app to check angles etc.
So my position looks a lot better in these pictures, sorry for the first very bad picture which then was very misleading.
Am I to conclude that the 60mm stem is a good fit and the bike is a good fit? I should just look into lowering the front to get a more flat back while keeping the angles I have now per the retul fit?
How does this new fit feel? How does it ride? It isn’t a great idea to work with a fitter in one snapshot and then go make a lot of changes. If the fitter is in your area then the best approach is to work with them over time to evolve your position.
The key to getting your back flatter is Slowman’s diagram above depicting rotating your entire body around the bb. Just lowering your front end while holding everything else static will just lead to problems. Your current limiter is probably how you sit on the saddle. Until you can roll forward on the saddle it will be difficult to rotate your position. This is where I would expect a fitter to help you find a way to make this happen.
Also, don’t get too hung up on a flat back to start with. Maybe not even for the long term, if you can’t get rotated. A lot of aero improvement can be gained by optimizing your reach to bring your elbows in, shoulders in or shrugged and head down to really reduce your frontal area.
How about going to 160 cranks, then raise the saddle a cm and try it that way. IF not comfortable then raise the bars a bit…
Of course you have to go back to the fit bike to do this, did you do any trials with shorter cranks?
Monty has nailed (and Dan, Dan first). Often, and I mean often, a bike fit will get lost in translation. Meaning, you get your fit coordinates on a paper and then the fit gets lost in setting up the bike to those coordinates. Without a UCI jig you can measure a bike 5 times and get 4 1/2 different measurements - e.g. gather your friends around to measure saddle setback and you’ll see what I mean.
(Monty has nailed it) Look at your hips - key in on your kit lines for references. Right now you’re sitting on the bike like Eddie Merckx, you just have aerobars in front. You have a saddle that promotes hip rotation but you’re not rotating them . So, crank length is the next thing to look at. If your brain can’t workout how to get those fixed levers through the circle it will compensate to do so. Arching your back, swinging knees out to the side, dropping hips, etc…these all show an issue with circular efficiency. So, dropping that crank length - then raising the saddle to match it - will provide clearance. You can then rotate forward with more open/stable hips and be supported on the front. You’ll likely need some drop after that change as well.
…and when the retul numbers don’t match reality for the actual frame stack/reach(compare database on this site or cervelo’s page to that listed in retul output), how much faith do you put into the rest of the numbers being accurate?
position is beach cruiseresque with bend mid back to reach bars. not sitting on that saddle as it is designed to be. cervelos(the one OP has) are not a long/low frame
Are you sure about your inseam? You mention 84 cm but your saddle height on the retul form is almost 80 cm heigh?? That sounds a bit off for either one of them.
