So I just got a 920 and wore it indoors for a treadmill run yesterday. My average vertical oscillation number was 11.1cm (basically mediocre to awful), while my ground contact time was 210ms (not awful, but not Kenyan-fast either). This wasn’t my fastest or my slowest workout…just a steady run right around 7:00/mi. Interestingly, the 920 was actually within ~10-15 sec/mi of what the treadmill was indicating for speed. Average stride length was 1.38m (I’m 5’7") and my cadence was around the low 170’s. Are there any good runners out there that are getting high vertical oscillation numbers? Is there any variation in this with speed?
I know that these are two of the fuzzier (I should say: less well-researched) metrics that the device will output, so I’m taking them with a grain of salt, just curious to see what everyone else’s experience has been so far.
It is interesting to play around with, although I am not sure it is that useful. But I like to tinker with run form.
If you really want to affect vertical oscillation, try increasing your cadence and see what happens. We almost always saw a decrease in vertical oscillation with increased cadence.
The numbers are highly individual. It is more useful comparing you to you, than to someone else.
I’m sure you’re right, just trying to get a feel for exactly how well the correlation between VO/GCT and running ability holds up. I’m decently fast, but my VO number “says” otherwise.
One thing that has always interested me: the best runners seem to be able to “open” their hips more–they have more hip extension at toe off than slower runners. This seems like it would reduce VO as the increased extension results in more of a forward push than an upward one. Playing around with my hip extension I didn’t see a decrease in VO, although that may be because my cadence slowed down at the same time? Like you said, it’s something to play around with.
Vertical oscillation is a mixed bag- you need vertical oscillation to increase momentum, but it’s whats going on at the lower body to determine if it’s good vs. bad oscillation. Good if the hip, knee, ankle, and muscles around the joint are moving as they should- very bad if they are not (i.e.- not sufficient flexion at the knee joint at initial contact). Elites have more vertical oscillation than what some realize, but while theirs is a positive oscillation, amateurs tend to have more negative oscillation. In other words- if COM started at “X,” the elite trend to net a “x+y-(y)”, while the amateur trends to have more “x-y+(y)”- basically the elite powers into their run, and the rookie “crashes” or “falls” into theirs. Body weight, strength and bodyweight:strength ratio come into play here.
For a training run, 168-172 range is perfect for cadence. Garmin’s contact time algorithm is very suspect to begin with- I wouldn’t trust it as a number to be concerned about.
On a side note, 7min/mi and low 170’s for a cadence for a “steady state” effort seems like you’re probably over striding slightly, unless you’re a sub-3 marathon kind of guy…there’s a lot that goes into that, like your definition of steady state may be different than mine, and depends on your stride length and a few other measurements though.
Isnt it a thing that if you run a lot of treadmill you might adapt by getting more VO? I think I’ve heard so.
Yes I have heard this and seen it happen to myself after a lot of treadmill running in the winter. You can cheat with less opening up the hip/hip extension. One can run at 9 mph and 6 mph and have the same vertical oscillation which makes no sense for the slow runner. I believe you want to minimize your Y axis displacement for any given X axis displacement, in other words the longer the stride length the higher the vertical oscillation but for the same stride length the runner who achieves it with less vertical oscillation is fighting gravity less. More vertical oscillation is only good as you run faster and faster. The extreme example is a long jumper who has a reasonably high vertical displacement for his 28-29 foot long jump, BUT his vertical displacement is less than a champion high jumper (as it should be). The long jumper’s metrics is maximizing the single stride length (figuratively). We don’t want to be bouncing around like high jumpers going literally nowhere forward.
I really good example is watching Chrissie Wellington run 2:52 in Kona. It almost appears that both feet are touching the ground at the same time, yet she is running that fast without much vertical displacement (I’d have to go measure, it on a video)…just high cadence and opening up the hips.
Vertical oscillation is a mixed bag- you need vertical oscillation to increase momentum, but it’s whats going on at the lower body to determine if it’s good vs. bad oscillation. Good if the hip, knee, ankle, and muscles around the joint are moving as they should- very bad if they are not (i.e.- not sufficient flexion at the knee joint at initial contact). Elites have more vertical oscillation than what some realize, but while theirs is a positive oscillation, amateurs tend to have more negative oscillation. In other words- if COM started at “X,” the elite trend to net a “x+y-(y)”, while the amateur trends to have more “x-y+(y)”- basically the elite powers into their run, and the rookie “crashes” or “falls” into theirs. Body weight, strength and bodyweight:strength ratio come into play here.
For a training run, 168-172 range is perfect for cadence. Garmin’s contact time algorithm is very suspect to begin with- I wouldn’t trust it as a number to be concerned about.
On a side note, 7min/mi and low 170’s for a cadence for a “steady state” effort seems like you’re probably over striding slightly, unless you’re a sub-3 marathon kind of guy…there’s a lot that goes into that, like your definition of steady state may be different than mine, and depends on your stride length and a few other measurements though.
Hi Rob
I am not sure about Garmin’s contact time metric but I played around with Wahoo TICR ground contact time metric by verifying it on a Kistler Gaitway treadmill. It was pretty darn good. At least at jogging and running paces. I did not do any sprinting with it though.
Isnt it a thing that if you run a lot of treadmill you might adapt by getting more VO? I think I’ve heard so.
Yes I have heard this and seen it happen to myself after a lot of treadmill running in the winter. You can cheat with less opening up the hip/hip extension. One can run at 9 mph and 6 mph and have the same vertical oscillation which makes no sense for the slow runner. I believe you want to minimize your Y axis displacement for any given X axis displacement, in other words the longer the stride length the higher the vertical oscillation but for the same stride length the runner who achieves it with less vertical oscillation is fighting gravity less. More vertical oscillation is only good as you run faster and faster. The extreme example is a long jumper who has a reasonably high vertical displacement for his 28-29 foot long jump, BUT his vertical displacement is less than a champion high jumper (as it should be). The long jumper’s metrics is maximizing the single stride length (figuratively). We don’t want to be bouncing around like high jumpers going literally nowhere forward.
I really good example is watching Chrissie Wellington run 2:52 in Kona. It almost appears that both feet are touching the ground at the same time, yet she is running that fast without much vertical displacement (I’d have to go measure, it on a video)…just high cadence and opening up the hips.
I think it’d be interesting to see a “hip flexor flexibility metric” to VO comparison. Do those that can extend and open up their hips more on push off have a lesser VO? I would think so, but would love to see the correlations.
Maybe us triathletes (most with tight hip flexors) with VO metrics available to them can start using the data to point out flexibility shortcomings and look into focussed stretching to become more efficient triathlon runners.
Vertical oscillation is usually around 8.5 cm for me during intervals, and little bit more when I go slower. High vertical oscillation values don’t usually come from “jumping” high, it comes from “crashing” after landing and it’s usually a bad thing. The running coach in my club always reminds us to avoid vertical movements during intervals, and he knows his stuff.
That’s great info, thanks! I don’t have nearly enough trigger time with the Wahoo system, but getting the comparison from the Kistler is great. Unfortunately we’re still using our emed system for now, which requires much more of an interpretation when getting our ground contact times during a run.
It almost seems like there’s got to be an elite muscle recruitment pattern/sequence and an amateur one.
Steady state is a pretty vague term I guess. Z3ish might be more specific. About 45 sec slower than 1/2M pace. Basically an effort level whereHR isn’t climbing in spite of a constant pace.
I think it’s good to narrow run form principles to just a couple things you trust, and to commit to them 100% on every run. The three I usually tell people:
Cadence between 175-185 at all times
Imagine you are trying to hold a quarter between your buttcheeks. Good running feels like it is happening behind you, rather than in front, which is especially difficult for cyclists or power athletes/sprinters.
Remove all of the tension from your hips.
Once those three things are met, most other concerns fall into place. Wooohooo!
The global change in running mechanics associated with 12 weeks of instruction in the pose method resulted in a decrease in stride length, a reduced vertical oscillation in comparison with the control group and a decrease of running economy in triathletes.
Perhaps just as interestingly, none of the other biomechanical variables they assessed (e.g. stride length and cadence) had any significant relationship with running economy (Note: This is the summary from the RW article. I couldn’t see that same thing from the abstract, but also don’t have access to the full paper)
I like the stats from the 920, just not sure that trying to alter them actually matters.
I think it’s good to narrow run form principles to just a couple things you trust, and to commit to them 100% on every run. The three I usually tell people:
Cadence between 175-185 at all times
Imagine you are trying to hold a quarter between your buttcheeks. Good running feels like it is happening behind you, rather than in front, which is especially difficult for cyclists or power athletes/sprinters.
Remove all of the tension from your hips.
Once those three things are met, most other concerns fall into place. Wooohooo