what if the VDOT values don’t match with HR zones? For ex, if VDOT training says the long run pace to be 9:52 min/mile but the HR corresponding to that is the really low end of aerobic zone, stick to VDOT training or you can play around with HR and thereby increasing your VDOT pace?
Threshold pace for VDOT is given at 7:52 min/mile but that would correspond to about 160-165 bpm for me which not even threshold HR for me which is somewhere between 174-180.
So what do you suggest? Train by VDOT or HR? thanks
You work within a “system.” VDOT is calculated from at-that-moment race results. Then paces are generated off of that within the framework of Daniels differing runs (E, M, T, I, R) and you then balance your schedule accordingly with those workouts using the pace range you found from your race results.
Working with HR you should have tested for your LT (either using a field TT, a 10k - 1/2 marahton length race, or lab testing) and then generate your prescribed zones off of that. With HR training it is not so much about pace per mile as it is HR range for the type of run you are doing.
So either choose one system or the other. I always recommend not trying to mix and match what suits you. The biggest problem I see in other’s training is that they try to work with too many different systems instead of finding one that works well for them and sticking with it.
so i am not getting any faster or better by HR training, which i am not actually, then it is time to switch to VDOT and give it a try?
Get a garmin. Train with pace. There is no lying to yourself. The numbers do not lie. For me the only time a hrm was useful running was to make sure that an easy effort was actually easy. I no longer really care about keeping any run easy. As such I no longer run with a hrm.
x2 Pace off VDOT is the way to go. HR can drive you crazy- its high because of humidity, time of day (my HR is much lower during an am workout versus a afternoo workout), heat, diet etc… too many variables.
As was noted above, your zones should not be that far off so I would check how you set them up if you are going to use both.
Regardless, I like to place training into measures that reflect genuine changes in fitness, i.e. power and pace. You can’t lose sight of factors that influence pace, however, when you use it. For example, if I set my pace guidelines with a time from a flat road race and then spend most of my time running on hilly trails, you should consider how the two relate so as to train at an appropriate load.
so i am not getting any faster or better by HR training, which i am not actually, then it is time to switch to VDOT and give it a try?
Without seeing your plan/run schedule and what zones you were working from and how you got those HR zones I can’t really answer as to why you are not improving.
But I’m also a bigger proponent of pace and RPE based training and is what I will usually prescribe unless someone really wants to go by HR. Then I’ll work that in as well.
I suggest completely ignoring Daniels “E” pace (and the watch altogether) and simply running “easy” when it is time to run easy. I’ve been using Daniels system for years and I find it far more useful for the intense paces (particularly Threshold and Interval paces) than for easy pace. As long as the pace is truly easy, I don’t worry about what the watch says.
In my experience, there is no such thing as “too easy” on an easy day. And as far as the danger of “too hard” goes: Well if you are doing solid mileage, you’ll know if the run has been easy enough when it comes time for your speed workouts. If you aren’t feeling ready to go, you are probably going too hard on the easy days.
what if the VDOT values don’t match with HR zones? For ex, if VDOT training says the long run pace to be 9:52 min/mile but the HR corresponding to that is the really low end of aerobic zone, stick to VDOT training or you can play around with HR and thereby increasing your VDOT pace?
Threshold pace for VDOT is given at 7:52 min/mile but that would correspond to about 160-165 bpm for me which not even threshold HR for me which is somewhere between 174-180.
So what do you suggest? Train by VDOT or HR? thanks
If HR and VDot should ever match, it should probably be at the Threshold level… the above suggests that you “underpeformed” in your Vdot race.
From my own experience, the HR corresponding to my E pace, is below z1 for me (although it wasn’t always)… so I just run my easy runs faster.
The problem with all these pace based zones, is they assume every one’s curve is the same, but it isn’t dependent on their physiology and traing focus.
In my humble oppinion and limited experience, you can use both, along with RPE and get a relatively accurate intensity for any given workout. Stipulation is that you are not a slave to any of the three. Let me clarify what I use and others can chime in to correct me. Assuming you have used a recent race time for VDOT and you also conducted a 30min TT run to determine your LTHR and established zones:
Z1 easy run: I start it what feels easy, reference Garmin, check pace, it falls within VDOT calculated pace, good, 2 parametars match, check HR, at the begining bottom of Z1, good, all mathches. That was no wind, temp 45-50F, flat. Well the same run will look very different with each one of the 3 parametars if temp is 75F, or you maybe running into the headwind, or the topography pitches up. With intro of any of the 3 variables into your run, you are better off using all 3, RPE, pace, HR to gauge your intensity.
Hot, 75F or above, obviously VDOT pace may account for less than optimum conditions, but it could be off, your HR will be higher for any given pace at lower temp and it will cardiac drift more than usual, so again start with RPE, feels easy, good,check pace, pace off, slower by 30sec/mi, HR bottom of Z1, good, you are on track to restrain yourself from going over the intensity for your recovery run.
That is how I use it. Same for threshold work, all 3 RPE, pace and HR interact together to guide you to your propper intensity. All these numbers are just given for the sake of clarification, they are not accurate account of any given condition, just an example.
According to Daniels it takes about 6 weeks of the same sort of training load for your body to adapt and then you progress onto the next session increasing the load.
It really all depends on whether you are using a specific plan towards a specific race or if you are just doing general running to maintain or improve. Even within organized plans you may have intermediate races to get a gauge of where you stand in your training.
I’m personally a bigger fan of Pfitzinger’s plans and he has those sort of intermediate races built into the plans in the last phases of a build. For an 18 week marathon plan you would have 2 or 3 prescribed 8-15k races to get a sense of where you stand and to push the VO2 range a bit.
If you intend to use Daniels system I would suggest picking up Daniels Running Formula and at least read the first 6 or 7 chapters (before he starts getting into the various plans for the different distances). Then you can apply his ranges and types of runs to your training and add a little focus. I may be wrong, but what I’m getting here is that there is more running for running’s sake going on than specificity in training which is why you may not be seeing the results you want.
If you’re not getting faster based off of “heart rate training” (whatever the heck that means), then you’re doing it wrong. Even a lot of so-called “coaches” don’t really understand the intricacies of heart rate training.
As you can see, heart rate monitoring can be of benefit if you understand its limitations and train accordingly. Some athletes don’t have measured courses over which to monitor training pace, and HR can aid them in performing a series of repeated exercise bouts at similar intensities. Heart rate can help determine the relative stress when running against the wind, up and down hills, or over difficult footing.
Often the best approach is to learn to read your body based on your own perceived exertion scale and to train within the constraints that you monitor by using a device you have with you at all times – the built-in computer in your head.