Shocked that all you aero weenies aren’t going nutso over all the round bottles on down tubes at the US pro TT championships.
I don’t consider myself an aero weenie but it’s just stupid. It’s a proven fact that round bottle on the down tube is slower. In a big championship race, why not do everything you can? Especially when we’re talking about something that would cost next to nothing to implement
Agree, the round bottle is an easy fix. The down tube vs seat tube I’m not convinced based upon personal experience is the right move (for long course triathlon atleast). function over form. Don’t have to break aero as much to reach the bottle in that position (depending on the length of reach to the seat tube bottle) but in a TT race (not long course triathlon) it doesn’t make alot of sense.
Some of the aero bottles do not meet UCI approval. So teams stick with the round bottles. Not all frames allow seattube bottle positions. AND, between the bar waterbottles are also prohibited by the UCI.
Throw enough restrictions on something and riders just give up and pick the easiest solution.
easiest solution for the TT was, you didn’t need a bottle. takes all of 10s to remove 2 bolts
easiest solution for the TT was, you didn’t need a bottle. takes all of 10s to remove 2 bolts
That option doesn’t work for bigger guys, people who sweat more (especially on 40K courses), and really hot days.
The pro’s have been doing this for a while. Wiggo and others rode with round bottles on their down tubes in last year’s TdF. And if you look at his time he crushed almost everyone.
I have a Bontraeger aero bottle that I never use because it’s so awkward. I rode with a round bottle on my down tube last year and had my best time ever for 40K (53 and change).
Round bottles are faster!
easiest solution for the TT was, you didn’t need a bottle. takes all of 10s to remove 2 bolts
That option doesn’t work for bigger guys, people who sweat more (especially on 40K courses), and really hot days.
The pro’s have been doing this for a while. Wiggo and others rode with round bottles on their down tubes in last year’s TdF. And if you look at his time he crushed almost everyone.
I have a Bontraeger aero bottle that I never use because it’s so awkward. I rode with a round bottle on my down tube last year and had my best time ever for 40K (53 and change).
Round bottles are faster!
easiest solution for the TT was, you didn’t need a bottle. takes all of 10s to remove 2 bolts
That option doesn’t work for bigger guys, people who sweat more (especially on 40K courses), and really hot days.
The pro’s have been doing this for a while. Wiggo and others rode with round bottles on their down tubes in last year’s TdF. And if you look at his time he crushed almost everyone.
I have a Bontraeger aero bottle that I never use because it’s so awkward. I rode with a round bottle on my down tube last year and had my best time ever for 40K (53 and change).
Maybe faster. Although the Bontrager bottle is certainly more aero, the difficulty I have removing/replacing it and drinking from it when compared with the ease of the round bottle might actually be costing me more time. I am sure the pros have done wind tunnel testing before they use this position in races, especially the TdF.
by tt standards, I am both, bigger and heavy sweater, I don’t use a bottle for 40k. The TT was only 31k.
giving up 10+w for a water bottle is more than you will gain by taking a drink anywhere along the 35min you ride(you being the pros)
it is a non-starter of an argument, but feel free to use one when you TT. It is a personal choice
I was there and it was hot, quite a bit hotter than I had expected it to be, especially by 2 when the men started. (Got a nasty sunburn) I would guess at least a few decided on taking some water last minute. Also, not that many “teams” showed up, a lot of the pro’s were just there themselves in their personal vehicles… so possibly they didn’t have everything with them.
Don’t know, just speculating. Does seem like an easy thing to fix
I don’t drink while I am doing the 40k TT’s. But I do drink while I am in line, waiting to start. So having a bottle there helps. Since I have no soigneurs to grab my bottle before my start, I just leave it on the bike. Am I losing 10 seconds by doing this? Maybe, but I don’t see another option.
Yeah I’m the same. I’m 195, and I race in AZ where the TT’s are mostly in the summer when it’s 90 at 7am. I don’t need a bottle in a 40k. Would I be more comfortable with a bottle? Absolutely. But I’d also be more comfortable doing a pub crawl on a cruiser. I have thought about using a small frozen gel flask filled with water, placed in between the bars to use when approaching the turn around just to keep my mouth and throat from drying out so much. But I honestly think that being thirsty is a bit of a motivator in the last stretches of a 40k when you’re completely on the rivet. There’s only one place with water, and that’s the finish line. The sooner I can get there, the sooner I can get a drink.
leave at start and come back for it after finish, many people do this. don’t need a cage to carry it there. the 10w I quoted was an Arundel on a 2010 DA, so 40sec in a 40k. maybe that is worth it to you
Have you tested a BTA setup and found it slower than no bottle? I (ashamedly) haven’t tested this to see if I’m faster, so I just leave the BTA setup alone (given its utility in triathlons). A 1/3 filled bottle up front (easier to drink than wholly empty) just for the option of having a quick sip mid-40k seems to do the trick for me. I often don’t even drink anything during cooler olympic tri’s, though.
This post on the main site seems to indicate that having a round downtube bottle is actually faster than a bare frame:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...tr/waterbottles.html
Bare bike: 7.537lbs of drag
Bike with down tube bottle: 7.370lbs of drag
What does all this mean? Well, you need fluids to finish triathlons, and it turns out that having a down tube bottle on an aero frame isn’t all that bad. It also means that I, once again, must eat humble pie, because I have been preaching that frame bottles are bad. Interestingly enough, having both down and seat tube bottles is in fact bad, so I was half right. I was surprised how effective the down tube bottle was. My guess is that it breaks the air around the seat tube, so the bike acts more like a frame with no seat tube, so, less drag (Softrides are examples of this phenomenon).
I don’t race triathlon anymore, only bike racing, so I don’t use a BTA setup anymore. Having the bottle there in a BTA setup shouldn’t be slower, but coming out of aero to drink is. Even if it only costs me 5-10 seconds, it’s still time lost. Also, I’m not sure I’d have enough time at the turn-around to get a bottle out of the cage, drink, and get it back in all while slamming on the brakes and setting up the turn.
The setup I envisioned would be a mini-BTA setup with a gel flask that has velcro attached to it (and velcro on my aero bars), so I can just grab it, drink quick, throw it back on and turn. The only problem I’ve had with this is that the bottle sweating combined with 90+ degree temps tends to make the adhesive on the velcro fail.
I know Dave Luscan has used a BTA setup with a very short straw drilled into the bottle during his TT’s. This might be an option, though my armpads and bars are so narrow now I’m not sure I could even use a standard bottle for a BTA setup anymore.
This post on the main site seems to indicate that having a round downtube bottle is actually faster than a bare frame:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...tr/waterbottles.html
Bare bike: 7.537lbs of drag
Bike with down tube bottle: 7.370lbs of drag
What does all this mean? Well, you need fluids to finish triathlons, and it turns out that having a down tube bottle on an aero frame isn’t all that bad. It also means that I, once again, must eat humble pie, because I have been preaching that frame bottles are bad. Interestingly enough, having both down and seat tube bottles is in fact bad, so I was half right. I was surprised how effective the down tube bottle was. My guess is that it breaks the air around the seat tube, so the bike acts more like a frame with no seat tube, so, less drag (Softrides are examples of this phenomenon).
Thanks for reposting this. I remember having seen it before. But see what you did now? For some this was supposed to be a non-starter of an argument.
Oh, gotcha, and agree with the coming out of aero part.
I’d be dumbfounded if I lost 5-10s off a single sip, given that’s close to the length of time it should take to make such a drink. I suppose it depends on how cleanly you can do it. I mean, you shouldn’t come off the power, so you’ll see the slightest dip in speed from position. With only one sip over the course of the 40k, I’m putting time costs down closer to 1-2 s. That’s per drink, so you don’t want to do it too often, but one sip might be net-beneficial.
Hm. Wondering what it would take to test the time cost. This is certainly getting down into the residuals!
you should read what Damon Rinard and Cervelo have to say on the subject. I would not consider a typhoon ot be a very aero frame. again, your choice, I can only see what I have seen and it was not good. Quoting 10yo info seems strange in this regard
still is, unless you are going back to what would be considered a not very aero ride by today’s standards. so if you start out with bad tube shapes, by all means use a bottle…
Convenience might be one reason. Improving aerodynamics is not. In our wind tunnel testing, adding a bottle to any bike’s down tube (or seat tube) added drag in various amounts, typically between 25 and 50 grams. At common race speeds that’s around 2 to 5 Watts.
One report with data on bottles is here on Slowtwitch:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...the_Tunnel_1929.html
Compare the drag of the same bike in the different plots to see the effect of adding a bottle.
Another source (same wind tunnel data) is on Lava:
http://lavamagazine.com/...ation/#axzz1pwDAmciV
This one includes numbers for bottles in front of the rider, behind the rider, and on the frame in various places.
Hope this helps,
Damon Rinard, Senior Advanced R&D Engineer
Vroomen.White.Design
http://www.cervelo.com
http://www.bbright.net