I’m looking for some advice on upgrading my triathlon wheels ahead of Ironman California. I currently have a set of aluminum Zipp 404 clinchers from around 2005.
I’m considering buying a set of used Zipp Firecrest 404/808 clinchers for $900. They’re likely around 10 years old, but I’ve heard great things about the Firecrest design.
Given my current setup (180lbs, 270W FTP, 2008 Specialized Transition Pro), and the flat course of Ironman California, how much of an improvement can I expect in my bike split with these new wheels?
I’m also considering the option of adding an AeroJacket Disc Cover to my existing wheels for only $100. However, I’m a bit concerned about the durability of my older wheels.
Do the Firecrest wheels have any significant advantages in terms of hub design or other features that might make them a better choice?
Any recommendations or insights would be greatly appreciated!
They may be better wheels but I’m not sure they’re $900 better. I have the setup you’re looking at and they were good wheels… I ran a disc cover on the 808.
Anyway, I’d say go for something like a set of Flo Wheels.
Otherwise I’d just get the disc cover for your current 404. Assuming your bearings are good, wheels spin nicely… probably the best ROI.
The greatest thing you can do with that budget is buy a good used DISC. But if you dont want to do that. The 404/808 are pretty bomb proof. I would never add a “Cover” those things can come off way to easy Im sorry but at $100 bucks I just wouldnt trust one at 45MPH down a hill. Instead of that $$ spend you can just upgrade the bearing in the hubs.
I’m sure you mean the best and just care about rider safety, I really struggle to understand the hate disc covers get. Just because it doesn’t cost a a lot of money doesn’t mean its not safe.
Also if you think of the physics, where are your failure points? The through bolts if you’re going with EZgains or aerojacket most likely. And the faster you go the forces are just rotational. Most likely if anything happens it would be if its not exactly centred when you mount it, you may put a small crack or dent in the plactic in the hole around the mount if you use it in training all the time on rough roads, but high quality electrical tape around the edge of the cover should solve this.
I can see if you DIY that some people may do something stupid. But I believe the disc cover is a great equalizer for those without the proper disc cover budget to actually be competitve in the top of the field (e.g., Ben Deal has had good pro results with it and probably hits big descents probably 2x as fast as OP will hit on the flat IM California course). I’ve done about 15 IM branded and 30 independent races with disc covers (about half with an aerojacket and the other with a DIY one when I got the speed concept which isnt compatible with that weird duotrapsensor thing), and never had a problem. I even accidently hit the rumble strips at st george going 75kph and my aerobar bolts were rattling and the cover was fine.
Sorry for the essay I am just a big believer of disc covers. If I were OP I would get the cover, and look at other places to invest the rest of those $$. Maybe an aerohelm if they dont have it already, proper fitting tri suit, carbon shoes, slightly healthier more expensive grocieries, aero calf sleeves…
I agree! I was going to post something similar. Been using a disc cover for over 10 years on different wheelsets and have never had an issue even with bombing down plenty of hills.
I’ve had some experience with wheel covers in the past, which I used at two Ironman races in 2009 and 2011. But I’m a bit concerned about the durability of my 20yr old Zipp 404s. I had a rear hub break on me during a training ride for Ironman 70.3 Santa Cruz with a 404/808 wheelset, which I’ve learned is due to a weaker hub design compared to the Firecrest wheels.
Do you think this was a one-off incident, or should I be more cautious about using 20yr old wheels?
If the hub speed hasn’t improved significantly with newer tech, I’m open to using a wheel cover on my existing 404 setup.
Regarding the Firecrest wheels, would they be compatible with my 10-speed Specialized Transition Pro?
@xeon I’ve looked into Flo Wheels but haven’t found a full wheelset for $900. Considering the resale value of my current wheels, upgrading to the used Firecrest set would only be ~$500.
Another thing to consider and the best bang for your buck is what tires and tubes are you running. Consider a low crr tire (look at aercoach data) and latex tubes. If you are running slow tires currently and butyl tubes, this could be the biggest gain one could get for the least amount of money.
I would also point out that newer wheels might not mean “faster.” I just went through this with my 2011 Spec Transition–upgraded wheels and new, wider tires. It wasn’t faster. Then tried the narrow tires on the new wheels. It wasn’t faster. As a few folks pointed out on that thread, my old Mavic Carbonnes were actually about the same as the Zipp 303s, so I went back to the Mavics because I prefer the aluminum braking surface for a race that has two 180s per lap and is three laps. If you have the ability to do some test runs, you might be surprised with the data.
@stevej Great points about the tires and tubes. I’m using GP5000 tires (25mm) and bontrager butyl tubes. I’m pretty sure the GP5000 are good tires. But what latex tubes are recommended? I didn’t realize they made that much of a difference vs. butyl tubes.
@MeggieB Thanks so much for the details of your experience! Just trying to figure out where I can get some easy gains.
I’ve been racing Flashpoint 60s since 2008. They are probably the same as your wheels because the FP was just an older Zipp design sold at lower prices.
As such, I would guess a 25mm tire is probably a little wide for that rim, so you have to decide if you want a little more comfort vs. aero. I use a Conti Supersonic 20mm tire. It is not a perfect solution, but I’m not spending money on new wheels.
Your proposed wheel swap will have a negligible performance improvement. Go with a disc cover and call it good.
Latex tubes generally gain you 1-3 watts vs. butyl depending on which butyl tube you are using.
I’ve also been using a disc cover full-time because I’m too lazy to take it off and it has held up for a decade.
I think once you have a deep enough wheel, which you do, changing amoungst similar sized wheels will return negligible gains. Especially if you aren’t 100% aero, Spend very little time out of the aero position and you will give up the micro advantage a newer designed wheelset gives you over your 404s. yes, an 808 will help you. I have a buddy who has done 31 IMs and KQd5+ times, did most of those with a wheel cover. Look up the one from wheelbuilder.
if your bearings are suspect, have them inspected… probably cheaper to buy a new wheel (or wheels) than investing in them.
Not sure I would chuck a wheel with bad bearings. Wheel bearings are pretty easy to replace and not too expensive. I replaced the bearings on my well used 404’s in about an hour. Now if the cups holding the bearings have play, that may be a different story.
A disc cover will make the most difference at the least price. They don’t fall off contrary to whomever said that. They are held together by little screws. In low wind conditions the cover will only provide a little benefit, 2-4w by reducing spoke drag. As the yaw angle increases there is an exponential decrease in drag. In the right wind condition you can see a very outsized benefit. A deep wheel may be 8w savings in a certain wind condition where the disc cover could be 18w savings in that same condition.
Or to put it another way, 20% of the time you use a disc cover you’ll see a small savings over a deep wheel, 70% of the time you’ll see a decent savings above the reduction of spoke drag and 10% of the time you’re going to benefit greatly.
Unfortunately I went to WheelBuilder website and they no longer sell the black AeroJacket Disc Cover. They do have all white, but I’m not sure I can bring myself to have a bright white rear disc wheel to save a few watts. LOL. Would you?
I am going to take my bike and Zipp 404s to the bike shop and have everything inspected and tuned up. And I won’t worry about the potential 2-4min time savings during the Ironman if I had spent $1K on new wheels. Or even better, I can just use it as an excuse if I’m not satisfied with my time, and tell myself the only reason people are much faster than me is because of their wheels!
