Unobtainium For Real?

Hello All,

Sell your old obsolete carbon fiber bikes … beat the rush … :slight_smile:

http://ir.callawaygolf.com/...ticle&id=1482567

Forged Composite is the lightest, strongest, most precise material Callaway has ever employed. Encompassing more than 500,000 intertwined turbostratic fibers per square inch, this revolutionary material features an incredibly high threshold for withstanding the extreme forces encountered by Lamborghini and Callaway products.

Forged Composite is one-third the density of titanium, yet features a greater load carrying capacity per unit mass in bending.

The implementation of a new, proprietary isothermal forging process enables Callaway and Lamborghini engineers to incorporate Forged Composite into their designs with a level of precision that was previously unachievable.

http://www.callawaygolf.com/...ogy/Lamborghini.html

http://www.callawaygolf.com/Global/en-US/Innovation/ForgedCompositeTechnology/WhatIsForgedComposite.html

Cheers,

Neal

And wheels.

Hello DamonHenry and All,

Oh no … not my wheels too! … :frowning:

Well, small consolation, I didn’t get that cycling stuff as an investment anyway … I told myself …

http://jdlong.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/confused-man.jpg

Cheers,

Neal

I suspect that the first application of this technology will be in accessories like water bottle holders, stems, pedal bodies and things like that.

Hello DC and All,

Could be since I suspect the material and process will be costly initially.

Small parts make sense for starting up production.

But the thought of a TT bike that is 2/3 of current weight is enticing … if costs were not prohibitive.

With a lighter stronger material perhaps some retro designs will be practicable again - maybe a beam bike.

Cheers,

Neal

So what is it really, aside from marketing mumbo jumbo? The article seems to be describing a new superstrong fiber, but doesn’t say what the matrix is.

Styrrell

i think it’s a metal with CNT’s in it…

I remember reading a journal article once that talked about CNT’s found in real Damascus steel forgings from thousands, maybe millions, of years ago. (obviously the time frame evades me right now)… anyway, maybe it’s somewhere along those lines, metallic composites? Of course Damascus steel wasn’t engineered to have that in it, but it’s still kind of funny.

Its replacing carbon fiber with, wait for it… carbon fiber

http://www.carbonfibergear.com/what-is-forged-composite-a-new-way-of-using-carbon-fiber/

Rather than laying up carbon fiber in sheets and impregnating it with resin like your typical carbon fiber manufacturing, Forged Composite uses a paste of fibers (500,000 turbostratic fibers per square inch) mixed with resin that is squeezed out to make almost any shape. Since the fibers aren’t oriented in any particular direction, the finished part is strong all around, while remaining light. While we don’t know for sure, our initial thought is that a part made of Forged Composite may be strong, it is not as structurally strong as a traditional carbon fiber part

Hello CW in VT and All,

We may not have enough data presented yet to comment on the strength of the Forged Composite vs. layup carbon fiber.

But if it is as strong as Callaway indicates we may hear stories like;

“I was tooling down the freeway and my Lamborghini bike came off the rack, rolled a few times, got hit by a 16 wheeler - going under the wheels, and … would you belive it? … there was some minor tire damage to the 16 wheeler but my bike was unscathed after we used a crow bar to pry it from between the tires.”

“Yeah, I left my Callaway bike for a couple of minutes leaning against the back of the car to get a drink of water, my wife came out and backed over it, damn, I had to get a new car tire, but it didn’t hurt the Forged Composite bike or wheels.”

This article tells a bit about fabrication and indicates there could be some cost savings in production - also the greater accuracy of parts could help in bicycles that have rear wheels fitting close to the chain stays by eliminating/reducing production differences in tolerances.

http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/forging_the_latest_driver_revolution

Excerpts:

What, you may ask, could an American golf-club manufacturer want with the maker of exotic Italian sports cars? Or, if you’re looking at it from the automobile enthusiast’s perspective, why on Earth is the firm that makes the sort of cars James Bond dreams about getting into bed with a firm that makes golf clubs for Phil Mickelson and John P. Hacker?

As it happens, the two organizations are at the forefront of a technological development that promises to provide the world with both incredibly light, strong and fast cars, and amazingly light, strong and fast drivers (the golf club, not the person operating the light, strong, fast cars). Actually, it’s Callaway that has led the move, **working with the Aeronautics and Astronautics Department at the University of Washington in Seattle, and Assistant Professor Dr. Paolo Feraboli specifically, in a quest to find the perfect composite - a material so light, strong and fast, it will render all-titanium drivers obsolete. **

“We used some lab facilities at UW and the folks from Lamborghini were interested in using the same lab facilities to do some similar work,” Callaway’s Senior VP of Research and Development Alan Hocknell told Automobile Magazine in October 2010. “It was at that point that our paths crossed. The guys at Lamborghini realized we had been working in that area for about four years, so we had already gathered knowledge and experience in how the material behaves in different forming-process parameters.”

The result of all the research is a carbon-based material called Forged Composite (FC) in which over half a million turbostratic carbon fibers are concentrated on every square inch, making it a third the density of titanium but significantly stronger. That allows for a greater load carrying capacity per unit mass in bending (80% greater than titanium, in fact) which, in terms non-Ph.Ds might understand, means that when the lighter-weight clubhead bends and stretches at the moment of impact, it remains strong and cohesive which, in turn, means more powerful shots.

In turbostratic (not a ghastly made-up marketing word but an actual scientific term) carbon fiber, sheets of hexagonally-arranged carbon atoms are folded over each other randomly, giving this form of carbon higher tensile strength.

**With graphite, also made up of carbon atoms, the sheets are stacked up alongside each other in a far more regular pattern, making the bonds between the sheets relatively weak. This explains why graphite is brittle and crumbles fairly easily. **

“We can now form the crown with composite in all directions,” says Luke Williams, Callaway’s Director of Product Design. "Because of the nature of Forged Composite and the new forging process we use to make, it takes four minutes to heat the composite. Carbon fibers are suspended in a matrix which moves with the consistency of toothpaste so can therefore be pushed into all parts of the machine tool, ensuring the absence of voids and strength in all parts of the structure.

The clubhead is not only stronger but also much more consistent. Using an old laminate carbon tool, we would find the walls of the crown weren’t always uniform. With the new process, we can optimize the FC down to one-thousandth of an inch."

While finding a suitable grade of carbon for the job is one thing, knowing what to do with it is quite another, adds Williams. “This is high-tech stuff,” he says. "The R&D is very expensive and requires a certain level of expertise. This is not the sort of thing someone tinkering in his garage is going to discover.

We’ve been riding the coattails of the aerospace industry for a while, but we’re now right at the forefront of composite technology. It’s very exciting."

http://www.aa.washington.edu/faculty/feraboli/

Excerpts:

Paolo Feraboli joined the Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics of the University of Washington in the summer of 2005, as Assistant Professor in Aerospace Structures and Materials. He is the Director of the Advanced Composite Structures Laboratory (ACSL), which was named after Automobili Lamborghini in October 2009 following a generous unrestricted fund for its establishment.

Dr. Feraboli has received research funding from The Boeing Company, the Federal Aviation Adminstration (FAA), the Air Force Office of Scientific Research (AFOSR), Callaway Golf, Hexcel Corp., Toray Composites of America, and Automobili Lamborghini S.p.A. on various research projects related to the development of analytical and experimental techniques for composite materials. He is particularly interested in composites aircraft safety and certification, including impact damage resistance and tolerance, lightning strike damage, and crashworthiness.

In 2007 he was actively involved with the methods development of the composite-intensive Boeing 787 Dreamliner, and worked in the 787 Technology Integration group under Dr. Al Miller.

Cheers,

Neal

Some may notice a woman in this photo…took me over an hour to see her.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/09/01sestoelementodetails.jpg

I can not even imagine what the insurance would cost on this car…let alone what the car would cost. Have honestly been sorta shopping for a Gallardo as a fun car as the price for second hand units has fallen below the $100k mark…this car just makes the fact that when you make one dream come true - another dream pops up. The use of carbon in the car is far cooler than the use of carbon in the golf club. In the car however most of the carbon is non-structural. Carbon wheels however…freaking wow.

This is marketing BS if I’ve ever seen it. From the article in carbonfibergear.com

“Rather than laying up carbon fiber in sheets and impregnating it with resin like your typical carbon fiber manufacturing, Forged Composite uses a paste of fibers (500,000 turbostratic fibers per square inch) mixed with resin that is squeezed out to make almost any shape. Since the fibers aren’t oriented in any particular direction, the finished part is strong all around, while remaining light. While we don’t know for sure, our initial thought is that a part made of Forged Composite may be strong, it is not as structurally strong as a traditional carbon fiber part (Any experts, please comment).”

It sounds like “Forged Composite” is just a fancy name for randomly oriented carbon fiber, which certainly has benefits over titanium in some applications, but this is absolutely nothing new. One of the big benefits of directional carbon fiber is using the least amount of material (and lightest weight) to accommodate the anticipated loads. In a randomly oriented fiber composite, the strength is higher than pure polymer, but it uses extra material to be strong in all directions, which could be useful where the loading is poorly understood such as a golf club face. Randomly oriented fibers are much easier to manufacture than directional.

The idea of forging is perhaps the “innovation” here as opposed to the commonly used process of injection molding. Injection molding a component with CF laden polymer can still lead to some directionality as the polymer flows into the mold. I’m not a composites expert, but it seems to me the improvement in material properties would be negligible.

And how does that differ from OCLV?

OCLV uses directional fibers
.

http://i52.tinypic.com/16bgd42.jpg

“If you see Unobtanium is being touted in some product you can take that as total bullshit.”

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Funnybony/Unobtainium
.

OCLV uses directional fibers

False. Neither do the Time RSX pedals and many other carbon things we play with. OCLV is more like MDF than plywood. Please, look into what OCLV is as it is not a directional fiber as much as some think (yes, I have seen bikes being made in person at the factory). While there may be a tendency for sheet to go one way, it is not at all like a weave sheet to sheet, but like stacking MDF, you can get a general direction. (not that that is a bad thing at all).

This new carbon is neat…but not unlike what we have already seen. More so in pedals from Time and Look than other places on current bikes.

On a lighter note and yes I’m being very flippant.

This could be the ultimate material for your cold weather winter training bike. Have you seen how many of the latest Lambo’s seem to burst into flames? If it gets too cold out on a training ride in winter, just park at the side of the road and wait for combustion!

On a slightly more serious note, I think one we should be paying attention to is carbon sheet / cloth made from nano tubes. Another of the “wonder materials” but the jury is out regarding it’s structure as at a lower level apparently it looks frighteningly like asbestos fibres under the scope.

Like all things, the ideas should not be thrown out yet, but lets hope the research is done properly before it becomes an everyday product and god forbid (whatever your chosen one is) that bike tech’s are suffering like those who remember the bad old days of asbestos production.

LOL…the asbestos “problem” is WAY over blown…next thing you know fried food will cause high blood pressure in some people…

But, we can just let the Chinese make the bikes and not worry about it, nor the lawyers and what not if someone does get carbon dust in their lungs - now, out to pour some dusty Kingsford into the grill…

Again, I repeat I’m not an expert on the stuff, and with any of the analysis you need to do a little guessing beyond the marketing BS (OCLV is marketing too, ya know)

from http://www.americanmachinist.com/304/Issue/Article/False/8682/Issue

"Trek has been manufacturing its patented Optimum Compaction Low Void (OCLV) frames since 1992. Reportedly, the company is the only manufacturer using this technology to make bike frames.

In this process, the company lays carbon fibers impregnated with epoxy in a frame mold. It closes the mold over an air bag, which is inflated, forcing out air pockets, or voids, between the fiber layers. These pockets must be eliminated because they are potential weak points in the frame structure."

It was my understanding that OCLV is just a process similar to typical carbon weave lay-up, then compressed such that air bubbles are forced out of the mold. That being said, in all the marketing of OCLV they never seem to state specifically if directional fibers are used. You are right about Time pedals and some thing. The Look KEO carbons that I have are made by injection molded CF. As you say, something like pedals where the shaping would mean using directional fibers would make for complicated manufacturing, could be a good application for this technology. But again, this is a far cry from an unobtanium miracle material

You and I agree on that. The Golf company wants to sell clubs…as for Lambo…no matter what they put out at what ever the cost - some dude in Dubai will buy it :wink:

OCLV is directional carbon fiber sheets. From TREKs website

Multi-Directional Material
Another proprietary process is called Flat Ply Collation. Simply put, carbon sheets are layered in pre-calculated directions to precisely control the fiber angle in each specific part. This enables it to perform exactly as it was designed to perform.

OCLV is just there marketing speak for “We do a better job with carbon sheet molding than the other guys”. It may be true, but its not wildly different.

One other thing to keep in mind is that this new stuff seems to be taking the place of the golf clubs Ti head. That I can see as an application, but using short randon strands to replace the carbon shafts of the club seems like a bad application, as does using it for bike frames.

Styrrell