Guys, clearly I am even less qualified than Greg/ORD to make any comments as I speak of my military experience in the land of frozen tundra that sends you cold fronts, Peter Reid, Simon Whitfield, Peter Jennings and a few others.
But clearly many of you guys who went to USNA/USMA/USAFA went there to serve your country etc etc. You guys are the “land of the free” right ??? Well let Greg have free speech in this forum, and don’t make any personal attack on him for his opinion. He is entitled to his, you are entitled to yours. Both may be wrong in the other’s eyes, but that is OK. He just presented another point of view that the young lad thinking of going to USNA might want to consider in his application.
21 years ago, in the similar shoes to the young fellow, I had no clue what I was doing, went in blind cause it was the only way I could get through college. Never thought once that myself or any of my classmates would die or have permanent injuries for causes that may or may not be worthy. I was fortunate to come out unscathed, but I do have classmates who are no longer here with us.
Like the guy considering USNA, my decision to go to RMC (in Canada) was influenced by being able to continue an athletic life, get an engineering degree and all for free. At no point did I even consider what it meant to be an officer and leader and serve in a profession where you can be asked to pay the ultimate sacrifice. It was a great experience, and I even founded our varsity triathlon team back in 1987 and got to travel the world on the back of being a quasi competitive age group triathlete, but one of the best in the CDN military in the early 90’s.
My decision to go to USNA was based on reasoning similar to your own, except I didn’t have an athletic career to continue. As all of us said, i believe, it ain’t for everyone and Greg/ORD pointed out in more stark terms than those of us who graduated, whose experience was more benign. I can assure you that there are many USNA dropouts who are just as critical of that school as Greg/ORD was of USAFA. One of the biggest critics was Adm. Rickover and his criticism resulted in many improvements, some of which did make my plebe year not quite as bad as those before me and worse than those that followed. However, they are probably turning out just as good a product, if not better than they did in my time because of these changes.
The problem with civilian college is if one doesn’t have the maturity to take proper advantage of the opportunity (and many don’t) they hardly learn anything useful for future success.
Kids in high school don’t have a clue as to what they REALLY want to do with their life nor a clue to the potential adverse consequences of any decisions they might make. Just look at the prevalence of smoking in high school, drinking and driving, and unprotected sex, to name a few.
I guess one can go to an Academy and take the risk that someone might try to kill you on a battlefield somewhere defending a principle or go to a civilian college and wait for someone to try and kill you on the 80th floor of the World Trade Center. Nobody really thinks about these things when they make these decisions because it is to obscure and far into the future. If they did there would be no sky diving, rock climbing, race car driving, evil kneival’s, etc.) There are no guarantees in life so one should try to make the most of it (whatever that means to them) while they have the chance. All the service academies (and the military as a whole) offer that opportunity to those so disposed. Those not so disposed should do something else.
I would like to apologize to this forum for my lack of professionalism in resorting to name calling. I cannot count how many friends in the military I have lost to aviation accidents and I get pretty emotional when people attack the military and the academies. Greg from ORD, you may not have attacked USNA directly, but when you attack one academy, you attack them all (in my book). I would just like to say one more thing about military pilots: Greg, have you ever thought that maybe the airline that you work for can only recruit the worst military pilots? AAL, SWA, DAL dont’ fly 747’s and you said you don’t fly for UAL. That only leaves NWA as the only other notable domestic carrier that flies 747s. Do you fly for NWA?
BigD, I’m sorry for getting off the subject. This discussion does bring up a good point in that choosing to attend an academy, and subsequently joining the military service, may require you to make the ultimate sacrifice one day. I know this is a lot to swallow as a High School Junior but it should be factored into your decision. If you want to become a military pilot then you must deal with the inherent risks involved. I will tell you that it’s the most fun I’ve ever had (without my wife). If you think triathlons are exciting, try a night cat shot into pure darkness, followed by a night tanking exercise on a KC-135, followed by a night mission over Iraq, followed by a pitching deck, low overcast, rainy night carrier landing. Greg from ORD, I bet you and your civilian buddies haven’t experienced that one. I have and it’s a hoot!
BigD, the academy experience can be summarized as follows: It’s the best of times and the worst of times, but in the end it’s so worth it.
God Bless America, George Bush, and all of our troops overseas!
Semper Fi,
Weasel
“Some people live an entire lifetime and wonder if they have ever made a difference in the world, but the Marinesdon’thave that problem.” –RonaldReagan
BigD, good luck with this. Please feel free to continue to ask questions of any of us.
Greg, you had a bad experience at the USAFA and you’re not down with the current administration. Ok, we get it. Personally I wasn’t too fond of having my Marines needed to use food stamps to feed their families during the Clinton administration but that’s not really relevant to this thread. However, while we’re on the subject of books I’d like to recommend a few:
With the Old Breed at Peliliu and Okinawa
A Sense of Honor - Webb
Starship Troopers - Heinlein
We were soldiers once and young - Moore and Galloway
Ender’s Game - Card
And if you want my advice, stay away from anything by Michael Moore unless you’re interested in a degree in deceptive filmmaking (which the Academy doesn’t offer by the way).
Semper Fi,
“Some people live an entire lifetime and wonder if they have ever made a difference in the world, but the Marinesdon’thave that problem.” –RonaldReagan GREAT QUOTE
This is getting interesting. I thought the academies are supposed to instill professionalism in its graduates. Perhaps they are not always successful in this regard.
I do not/did not try to “attack” any of the academies. I actually had a pretty good time at the USAFA. Part of my complaint with it was that it was not quite what it claimed to be. And I am just pointing out that it was not without some serious shortcomings, especially in regard to its mission. Are you saying that the academies are basically perfect, cannot be improved, and all that goes on there is just fantastic?
About pilots and their ability to plan, fly, and think well: you clearly do not like generaliziations and I admit that they simplify things greatly. But I have flown for several airlines. I have flown with many, many pilots from many backgrounds. I have taught many pilots, military and civilian, fighter pilots and bus drivers. My broadly sweeping generalization is just a summary of my (and others’) observations. Also, you may want to review the list of US-certificated air carriers that operate whales. Also, I never said that the military and military aviation would not include some fun things. (Although 11 hours non-stop in a refueled F-15 over the Miiddle East, being unable to move one’s body under the canopy, sitting on the almost non-existent padding of an ejection seat, taking drugs to stop your bowels and to stay awake might not make the top of the list for an athlete.)
BigD, the academy experience can be summarized as follows: It is indeed what you make of it (and so is life). But learn what you can about what you are getting in to and about how, why, or who will be asking you to give up your life (or spinal cord). They play for keeps.
God Help George Bush (and most other politicians) find a good brain.
God Help the 5,000 soldiers already seriously injured, evacuated from Iraq, and recovering at home or in the fantastically-funded VA Hospitals. God bless the ones who have died.
It all makes sense now Greg/ORD. You fly for Atlas or Polar or some other 3rd rate carrier. No former military pilot w/ a clean record and any skill is going to work for a 3rd rate carrier. This is why your experience w/ military pilots has been so negative. I must clean the slate for my fellow military pilots!
BTW, my wife is a therapist and she could probably help you get over your issues stemming from getting booted from the Air Force Academy.
If you had a quarter of the brain that George W. has then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
See what you’ve done BigD. I’ve been reduced to a battle of the wits with a liberal Zoomie dropout. Greg/ORD you win and I will give you the last word. I’m done. If I have offended anyone (other than Greg/ORD) then I apologize.
Let’s get back to discussing triathlons!! Hey, there’s a good way to solve this dispute once and for all: let’s duel it out on a tri course. Greg, you pick the course!
Weasel
“If you’re not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you’re not
a conservative at 40, you have no head.”-- WinstonChurchill"
Greg, the only thing interesting about this is the extent of your knowledge that you claim to have. You say that the Air Force Academy wasn’t quite what it claimed to be, yet you didn’t see the whole picture. Are you suggesting that you learn everything there is to learn in one short year? Are you suggesting that the first year is everything? Perhaps you know something I don’t, oh wait, no you don’t.
I’ll be honest and say that WHILE I was doing it, my plebe year didn’t make a lot of sense to me either. Its one of those things that you can only truly appreciate once you have something (like say, uh, the OTHER THREE YEARS) to put it into perspective.
All in all your comments come across as someone who is terribly resentful of the things you couldn’t do and the man you couldn’t become. You are critical of those who are brave enough to realize that it isn’t always just about the big ME, and I pity you for having such a lack of appreciation for the freedom that you have. I am sorry you are so self centered, it must be lonely at the top.
BigD, the military may or may not be the right thing for you, but you have to decide that on your own. True, the military is a tough job, and at times frustrating knowing that there are ungrateful folks out there, but it can be extremely rewarding should you do it. Nothing is perfect, not any Academy, not any college, not any Government and certainly not any country. But like anything, it (and this could be anything) is truly what YOU make of it.
Trust that you can learn a lot from the Naval Academy, but it is only if you are willing to learn. You’ll learn a lot about yourself, a lot about others, but most importantly that 9 times out of 10 its not about you. Call me brainwashed, but its served me well so far.
To clarify, I obviously do not know that which I did NOT experience. On the other hand, I CAN write about what I DID experience. Sometimes in life we make decisions based on what we know. I can’t talk or do anything about what I do not know or did not experience. That seems pretty obvious. Are the military schools decent? Probably, yes. Do they (in my eyes) have some shortcomings? Probably, yes. My problem was not about the percieved toughness of the program. If you are passably fit AND have the right attitude, you can survive anything.
No resentment against any of the academies or even the military. I fly with a lot of ex-military guys who are a blast (and some that are morons, but one can say that about any group). Perhaps any resentment I have is against the idiots in our Executive branch who happily send people into harm’s way while they fund crazy missile defense systems (and other boondoggles) all while the real men and women die and bleed in Iraq for a lack of adequate manpower, or a lack of armored HMVs and body armor. These servicemen deserve better, a lot better.
Also troubling is how the USNA has apparently not done a good job of instilling a high level of professionalism:
“Utter crap like this rarely deserves attention… do yourself a favor and keep your hole shut. Try talking about your big ego, seems like you know a lot about that.”
I think it is called, ‘ignore the message, but attack the messenger’ Mr. F-18 seems to have the same problem. Where is the high level of professionalism that you folks were taught to live by? Does it go by the wayside when you think about ideas different from your own?
"I would like to apologize to this forum for my lack of professionalism in resorting to name calling… I get pretty emotional when people attack the military and the academies… God Bless America, George Bush, and all of our troops overseas!..–RonaldReagan "
bigd, reflect upon these above comments. Because that is a typical response from a gungho military guy. Also in contrast listen to some of the things Greg/ORD has brought up. He makes some very good points. When I was your age I walked away from an expected military career in favor of a couple of years of world travel as a “hippie” and then attended a civilian university once I decided what I really wanted to do. It was a different world then in the Viet Nam era , but realize that that if you chose a military career in many ways it is a very stiffling experience in the sense that you are very much subtly influenced to think only in a certain way. Individualism, free thought and political desention is only a civilian luxury that will be discouraged in the military. On the positive you’ll get do do a lot of really cool things and have some great experiences normally not available to civilians. But the worst thing is that you may end up fighting some dumb ass war in some obscure country that you’ve never heard. There may be little public support at home which is quite a contrast to have been fighting WWII.
When I was your age, I had already spent most of my life living on military bases as the son of a military officer and knew it wasn’t for me. In many ways it’s a great career but in other ways it sucks.
Just decide what you really want. As has been pointed out several times here, a military college/career isn’t for everyone, but if it’s for you, then go for it. If not, then don’t. A lot of the military guys may not agree with all my opinions, but I’m sure they’ll all agree on this point.
“Individualism, free thought and political desention is only a civilian luxury that will be discouraged in the military.”
Phooey. the most open minded people I have even known are or were in the military. Most, but not all, are anxious to here what is wrong in the organization so they can make it better. Most, but not all, want as much data as possible to make the best decision possible. Unfortunately, once that decision is made it must be carried out without argument as lives depend on it.
Narrow mindedness and abusive behavior is not restricted to the military. It is much more prevalent in the civilian world where money drives decisions and ethics and honesty and personal honor and have a much less prominent place in the micro society.
My apologies for my initial reaction to your comments. I suppose it stirred up memories from 2nd Class year (College Junior for everyone else) when my plebes spouted words that lacked scope or perspective. Some comments just inspire stupid reactions.
Moving on, context is a wonderful thing. Your statements are slightly more reasonable now, and although I still find fault with some I won’t go into that anymore. Thanks for realizing that there are a lot things about those places that you couldn’t possibly know. I won’t profess the inadequancies of the 747 despite the numerous flights I’ve taken, so please don’t try explaining what it does or doesn’t take to make it through a service academy.
In all seriousness, my comment above about Second Class year is just a joke. I shouldn’t have said what I said about your ‘hole.’ To use two words which you may be familiar with, all I can say is that I have No excuse.
“I can imagine no more rewarding a career. And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction: ‘I served in the United States Navy.’”
President John F. Kennedy, 1 August 1963, in Bancroft Hall at the U. S. Naval Academy.
“Phooey. the most open minded people I have even known are or were in the military. Most, but not all, are anxious to hear what is wrong in the organization so they can make it better…”
–Well, wherever THOSE military folks or Academy grads are, they don’t seem to be here on this thread.
“Narrow mindedness and abusive behavior is not restricted to the military. It is much more prevalent in the civilian world where money drives decisions and ethics and honesty and personal honor and have a much less prominent place in the micro society.”
–Agreed, but is it not these same devious money-grubbing civilian folks with laughable ethics and personal honor (in our government and in others) that freely order the military forces into sometimes highly questionable conflicts all over the world to help US corporate interests, our buddy psychopathic dictators, big oil companies, or who knows what else? Then an honorable soldier can end up fighting for a dishonorable cause.
“–Agreed, but is it not these same devious money-grubbing civilian folks with laughable ethics and personal honor (in our government and in others) that freely order the military forces into sometimes highly questionable conflicts all over the world to help US corporate interests, our buddy psychopathic dictators, big oil companies, or who knows what else? Then an honorable soldier can end up fighting for a dishonorable cause.”
Back to civics 101 Greg/ORD. Seems you have forgotten that our military is controlled by civilians. Which military academy did the current leadership go to? Yale? The only “military” person high in the current administration seemed to be the only one there who tried to oppose this current venture. That was Colin Powell. Don’t blame the military for those orders. Or, would you rather they “think for themselves” and overthrow the government when they are given orders they don’t like?
I did summer science seminar at Air Force Academy (my vision was/is too awful for me to get an appointment to any of the service academies). From what they told us, it wasn’t very similar to the Academy experience, but the cadets that served as camp counselors would talk about their experiences all day long if you asked.
I had a ton of fun at the seminar- got to play with electron microscopes, fire off model rockets, do much other cool stuff, and there’s that neat kind of synergy you get when you’ve got a large group of smart, snarky kids all in the same place. Something like an hour and a half was set aside each day for workouts. I swam- lots of others went for basketball or volleyball.
Hope you have as good a time as I did in Colorado!
If you are looking for information on the USNA my father is a recrutier (Blue and Gold officer) He helps high school students go through the process of getting accepted and entering the Academy. I am sure he would be happy to talk with you if you are interested. If so, PM me and I will set it up for you.