United States Naval Academy

Triathlon Forum
24

"Finally, no matter how hard your first year (plebe, doolie, whatever) is, it was never as hard as the year before. "

… nor as easy as those that follow.

One thing. All of the Academies offer a similar experience but have different emphasis in Academics (at least they used too, it is probably more equal now).

The one reason that so many leaders come out of the Academies is not because they are so good at choosing those with great potential but because they are so good at imbuing knowledge, ethics and experience that is important to success in life in those who are there who survive.

25

As a 1986 graduate of the Naval Academy, I applaud your interest in attending one of the finest institutions in America. But I do have one concern. I haven’t seen any reference to whether you want to serve your country as an officer in the Navy. This is not critical to those who don’t chose this path. It certainly isn’t for everyone, and there are many noble professions that don’t involve military service.

In short, if you don’t want to be in the Navy, don’t go to the Naval Academy. If all you looking for is a mentally and physically challenging university experience, pick another school, any school, and just work your butt off.

Please don’t take the spot of someone who has always dreamed of going there to serve in the Navy. You wouldn’t be doing either one of you, or your country, a service.

bpe

26

I don’t know that a burning desire to be a naval officer is (or, even, should be) a requirement to go there. No one in high school knows what they want to do in life. Their knowledge of the navy comes almost entirely from what they see on TV, except, perhaps those who grew up with Navy parents, and even they don’t know what the real Navy is all about. I went in thinking I wanted to be a pilot and ended up knowing that was wrong for me and deciding on submarines (and getting selected).

I went to the USNA because I didn’t have the money to go to my first choice, RPI. It was a lucky break for me even though I wasn’t the most military minded guy they ever saw (at least I didn’t roll a bowling ball through watch inspection). I wasn’t the only one there like that and the Academy is probably better off for having “regular” people there also. Of my top achievements several are military related including graduating from USNA and earning my dolphins. I encourage anyone with a good academic background to consider it.

27

Did TDB graduate from the USMA? I know he started, but did he graduate? Does anybody know?

28

I’d have to agree with Frank on this one. I don’t feel that a burning desire to become a Naval Officer is at all a requirement to go to the boat school. I’d say that you might reconsider if you have any strong objections, but other than that, go for it.

I’d also say that if you just want to be a Naval Officer (or Jarhead, god save you), there are far easier ways of doing that. Ever heard of NROTC. Yeah, those guys end up in the same job…if thats all you’re looking for, have fun at college and don’t forget to wear your uniform on tuesdays.

That being said, I’d say that people don’t go to Annapolis to just become a Naval Officer. I think that people go for the experience, the ‘fun’, and the training. Plus, who wouldn’t want to spend 6 weeks in the Annapolis summer at Camp Tecumseh?? You go to Annapolis because there is something more on offer there…there’s something that you can’t find at an ordinary school and its something that you’ll appreciate for the rest of your life. Now, don’t get me wrong, I spent some time at regular colleges as well and you learn some pretty good things there as well, but Annapolis is different (for better and worse). I’m trying to say that Annapolis will change your perspective on things and it will show you that while the truth may hurt (be it physical fitness results, academic knowledge, leadership ability, etc.) , the truth is the only way to go. It teaches you to accept the fact that failure happens and ensures that you learn from your mistakes. Once you accept that, you realize that excuses are empty and mean nothing and that at all times you are accountable for your actions. Understand that, and you’re doing pretty well for a 19 or 20 year old kid. I think you’d be hard pressed to find that atmosphere at most 'colleges.

29

Ditto from me. Frank nailed it. I wanted to go someplace special that was going to challenge me because frankly I wasn’t getting it in in High School. And, like Frank, I went in thinking I was gonna be a pilot and left as a Marine lieutenant. Go figure.

30

I believe Tony deBoom did, and I am 99.9999% that Tim did not graduate from USMA.

31

I was a little curious.

From timdeboom.com, presumably a reliable source:

“By the time I graduated high school, I was a Backstroke State Champion. I was also the salutatorian of my class. With that combination of athletics and academics, I decided to go to West Point Military Academy. It became clear after two years that I was not able to pursue my athletic dreams while at West Point, so I left and enrolled at the University of Iowa. While there, I discovered triathlons and effectively started the next chapter in my life.”

From tonydeboom.com (ditto)

"Education:

United States Military Academy at West Point Bachelor of Science - Civil Engineering and Professional Leadership

US Army Airborne Ranger

Elite US Army Infantry Lieutenant - First Cavalry Division"

Ken

32

Phew! Thank you all for your responses. I can’t thank you all enough for the help.

First, bpe, one of the reasons why I want to go to NAVY is so that I can become an officer. To sum up a long story, after hearing my grandpa share his stories from being in the first wave into Iwo Jima, being only one of ten that lived out of his just over 100 people division, and risking his life countless times so that we can live in freedom gives me so much admiration to him. All I can think of after I heard his courageous stories and all that he has done is how can I sit here and not at least give something back to the U.S. I guess I was so sucked into wondering IF I could make it into the academy that I forgot two very important characteristics of the school: serving our country and being a leader.

So right now I’m totally stoked with all this information. I’ve read the website and heard a couple things from some people, but not this much. So here are just a few questions as I soak of all your great help.

What are the cannonballs? Ho Chi Min Trail? (They sound really exciting.)
How is that jump off the platform as high as an Aircraft carrier with your clothes, backpack, boots and your lucky item of choice? It sounds like such a rush but white knuckle scary.
I’ve heard that at any mealtime, classmen and women are not allowed to talk though if you are on a varsity team you can sit and talk with your teammates. Is this true if you are on a club team like the tri team?
What are the dorm rooms like? Are you allowed to bring a computer in?

Thank you all, again. I will never forget all this help.

On Tri-topic: I raced the West Point Triathlon this year as well. It was such a fun and well put together for a non-USAT race and would suggest it for anyone to do. Whatever you do though, never mention that you are looking into NAVY instead of ARMY to a body officiated with the school. I learned the intense NAVY vs. ARMY rivalry the hard way. :wink:

33

A cannonball is a desert. One is plenty for most mortals. A plebe who can eat 12 can “carry on” for the rest of the year. Few are foolish enough to try. I am not sure any have ever succeeded.

Jumping off the thingy is intimidating at the time but is such a minor part of the entire experience than most of us have forgotten completely about it.

Don’t worry about the dorm rooms or anything else. They are plenty adequate for your needs. If you have too much it is just something else to keep neat and clean. Mother B will take care of you. Just worry about doing your best now, especially academically, so you can get in.

I believe the entire academy is wired now and I’ll bet you are issued a lap top when you arrive, or at least at the beginning of the academic year. Like I said. Mother B will take care of you. (that is Mother Bancroft, the worlds largest dormatory if you didn’t know).

Good luck.

34

See, we had a slightly different version with the cannonballs, and reading your description, I guess your time wasn’t so ‘tough’ afterall… We had the ‘Cannonball Run’ which required the victim, errr, plebe, to consume 12 cannonballs within a reasonable time at one sitting and THEN run their little ass up to their room. IF they made it back without puking, they’d get carry-on for lunch the next day…whats this whole year business??? :wink:

Question about the ‘dorms’ and computers. Its fine. Its comfortable, and i hear they even have AC now… I’m not that old, but seriously, AC…the makes even me grumble. Moving on, you could really just show up naked on I-day and within a few quick hours you’ll have everything you need. When the time is right, (should be at the end of Plebe summer, thats how it was for me) you’ll be issued your computer and then you can play all the networked computer games you like. Just show up and be ‘open’ to new experiences…let the courteous staff take care of the rest…kind of like a resort. Just different.

Anyway, on to your question on the Varsity sports. The simple answer is that your statement is partially true. You are allowed to eat with your team, but only at certain meals. Depending on the team, and the number of workouts a day, you could stand to miss alot of the standard meals. True, this will mean that you’ll eat like a normal human, but it also means that you’ll be that much more busy. The team meals are there for a reason, and the reason is that it allows you to cram more workouts into your already packed day. Like most things, it goes both ways. For some people, varsity sports are the only way to survive at that place…for others, its the knockout punch. The thing you’ll have to recognize is that your academic grades are your number one priority at that place. The second you start mucking that up, get help because once your grades come down you can forget about any sporting dreams. For some reason, guys seem to forget that academics can and will get you kicked out of there if you’re not serious.

Basically, join the team if you want the sport…don’t join the team if you’re just looking for an easy meal.

35

Cannonballs must have been hit by the budget crunch. I only saw two attempts my whole time there and not a single success. I don’t think I would have tried to eat two cannonballs at one time just to carry on for the next lunch.

(BTW, for the lurkers here, Carry on means you don’t have to sit at attention with yur chin tucked in on the edge of your chair for meals or march in the middle of the hall or run up or down the outside of the ladders - stairways for you land lubbers). Anyhow, good for some stories when you are an old fart.

36

“Going into the military is certainly a personal choice and it is certainly not an environment for everyone.”

It’s most definately not for everyone. My dad was a career air force officer. Spending my first 18 yrs growing up on military bases was more than enough of military life for me. Of course I grew up as a teenager in the Viet Nam era and that no doubt was very influential in turning me off a military career.

However, had I chose the military, as an avid scuba diver/boat guy, the navy would have definately been the route for me.

37

A few things you may want to consider. I was at the USAFA for all of the initial ‘hell summer’. I then started classes there, but did not stay for the year. I graduated from the University of Calif. and, in retrospect, am quite glad I went the way I did.

Some observations: the time there is tough, but not physically to someone like yourself. Most of the cadets in my class at the USAFA were laughably unfit, but, boy, they could drink more alcohol in one night than I could in my lifetime. The way the academies make it tough is that you will sleep very, very little, will learn to fold your underwear with unreal precision, will learn to march real well, and do a lot of other things with that have very little useful purpose. A lot of activity there was focused on keeping up appearances and very little on truly improving or developing the body or being inside. The military academic instructors were very weak compared to most of the fairly inspired instructors at my civilian university. Cadets who were just about to graduate and who I knew for many years and who were very smart told me an interesting thing: “the academy takes an adult and makes him into a child”. The academy follows up on your every move and problem, which is nice if you want or need a Mom to follow you around and check up on you. No one follows up on you in a civilian university: you want to graduate at the top of the heap?–then it is YOUR responsibility to register, to come to class, to do your work, to take your exams, to submit your paperwork. You don’t want to meet the requirements or the deadlines?–then you’re history…

I am now a pilot and fly a 747 all over the world for a living. I have run in to many, many military trained pilots in my career. There are exceptions, but if I had to broadly generalize, military pilots are a lot weaker than civilian trained pilots. I am sure there are many reasons for this.

Defending your nation is an admirable thing, but be aware that lately (since Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) lame-ass “money dynasty” politicians who have never risked their life for ANYTHING are the ones that are sending soldiers and officers to their death or dismemberment. Also, the military spends a lot of money on planes, ships, subs, bombs, jet fuel, questionable training, but if you lose you leg or your spine, somehow the equivalent funds and support don’t seem to make it to the VA hospitals.

Whether you go to the USNA or not, do these things below and you will know more about what you are REALLY getting into than 99.9% of your classmates:

See the film, “Dear America: Letters Home from Vietnam” A stunning documentary that is, hands down, one of the best films about life, war, and history EVER made.

Read “The Ugly American” A incredibly patriotic book (a novel based on real events) that vividly shows the reasons behind the Vietnam bloodbath. This book has even had the honor of being specifically denounced (!–truth is always unpleasant to politicians) on the floor of the US Senate.

See “Born on the 4th of July” A hellish film about what often happens AFTER a soldier’s spine is blown to bits.

Spend some time at a VA (Veteran’s Administration) Hospital and see for yourself what kind of party it can be.

Sorry I can’t offer more encouragement, but I think you know by now that every major life choice has pluses AND minuses. Don’t take my word for anything, see, read, and learn for yourself.

38

"In short, if you don’t want to be in the Navy, don’t go to the Naval Academy…Please don’t take the spot of someone who has always dreamed of going there to serve in the Navy. You wouldn’t be doing either one of you, or your country, a service. " Excellent Point! I couldn’t agree more. Don’t forget that serving in the Marines is an option after graduation also.

bpe

39

I think weaselF18 reply was right to the point and probably much more succint then what I will write but I do feel the need to reply.

As expected you (greg/ord) had to know there would be some replies to your post. I will begin by saying that I agree with your general theme which I interpret as an Academy is not a place for everyone. Also, as you can guess I am very biased due to having attending an Academy, fighting in a war, and losing a father in Vietnam so please do not take this as a personal attack. It is a very tough place both mentally and physically. It is not meant to be easy. There are reasons why they make it tough and one of them I believe is for a sense of self-worth and knowing that you can face adversity. I had many good friends that remain so today that left the Academy for various reasons, some are happy with there decison and others regret it.

Now I would like to reply to a few of your points. Yes, there were many incoming mids that were physically unfit and out of shape. Probably more a product of our society then a factor of the institution they were attending. I spent a few years on a couple of civilian campuses and I would agrue that the proportion of unfit folks in much higher there. The vast majority, I believe close to 90%, of incoming plebes played a varsity sport in high school. While this is not a sure fire method for judging fitness it is a fact rather then opinion.

When I was a plebe at the Academy I often questioned the necessity of the menial and trival tasks we were required to do. It took me until after graduating to realize that they do in fact have a purpose. They teach attention to detail. I work with many different companies throughout the world and am amazed how haphazardly some people approach important tasks. This tasks help instill a sense of responsibility and accountability as well as time management. Most civilian jobs do not have set hours allowed to work built into their contracts so people need to have a work life balance. This is taught at the Academy. You must remember that much like your job as a pilot when you garduate from the Academy you are responsibile for the lives of other people. That is a lot of weight to place on a person especially a young person.

You experineces with the instructors was much different then mine. You say the the professors at the University of CA were far superior? I will assume that you attended one of the top schools in the system such as Berkely of UCLA because they vary greatly. I thought they were for the most part very good at USNA. I spent time at the University of Michigan which is an outstanding institution but by no means were the teachers there superior. Their credentials may have been better but they certainly did not have the same desire to see their students succeed in both the classroom and life. They do indeed care and as you said all the civilian schools care is if you make the grade.

I have heard the quote you referenced, however, I heard it a little differently. “Academies break down a person and then build them back into leaders.” Others with the knowledge of the institutions will have to decide which more correct.

You are right on that at a civilian school no one follows you around and ensures that you do the things you are supposed to. There are certain pluses and minuses around this. You do realize that if you look at the Fortune 500 list of companies that the majority, over 50%, of the CEOs and Presidents were junior military officers. Does not mean they all or even most came from an Academy but it does point to the leadership and responsibility qualities needed to succeed.

One point that really struck me was when you said that civilian trained pilots were better then military trained. I am not a pilot and your opinion is certainly more informed then mine. However, when I mentioned this point to some of my pilot friends they obviously dissgreed. Again each have their biases and opinions. However, from a laymans point of view a person that is trained at a place such as Embry Riddle compared to a person that has to land a jet on a a floating air strip at night…? Well you can make an assumption yourself about that. I will concede that flying a bus is different then a fighter jet.

I have also spent time in a VA hospital and it is not up to par with the elite hospital in the civilian world. Unforatuntely nowadays many cannot afford to go to these facilities. Having life long medical support after retirment is a very valuabel thing now. The support for our troops could and should be better but based on my experiences it was more then adequate.

There are other points I could address but they become a little too personal so I will avoid them.

I apologize if I offended anyone with my tirade. After rereading I may come off a little arrogant. I guess it is just pride in where I am from. I was going to delete this but figured I spent the time writing it so I will post it. Rememebr the Academy teached time management. Hope no one takes it the wrong way. Everyone has to decide what and where is best for them. Thanks.

40

Greg from ORD, you are an idiot. How can you say the things that you’re saying when you only spent less than 6 months at the Air Force Academy. First of all, you’re experience is w/ the Air Force Academy and not USNA. I’m not saying that one is better than the other I’m just saying don’t make broad generalizations about things that you don’t know about. Secondly, who cares if you fly 747s (you sound like a United tool). You are like many airline pilots that I know: Your sense of self worth is much larger than it should be. I can say this because I’m an airline pilot. As far as civilian pilots being better pilots than military pilots is total crap. I know civilian pilots that are outstanding and I know civilian pilots that couldn’t fly their ass out of a paper bag. It is true that there are some military pilots that aren’t great, but they’re not horrible or they wouldn’t have made it through the military pilot training. How many times have you put your life on the line for your country? That’s what I thought. Any idiot that would recommend “Born on the 4th of July” must be a Michael Moore lover and a Dean supporter. It’s a damn good thing you didn’t make it through the USAFA. Your animosity about the academies and the military leads me to believe that you got kicked out of the academy (probably for an honor violation). I’m so pissed at your post that I’m shaking right now. So stick your head back in the sand where it belongs.

Weasel

PS. BigD, please don’t listen to this guy because he’s talking out his rectum like many airline pilots do.

41

BigD - If you have any specific questions about USNA please feel free to email me. More then happy to help.

42

Utter crap like this rarely deserves attention, but this time I’ll say just this:

Greg, don’t talk about things you’re not familiar with. So you spent less than a year at the Air Force Academy. I have news for you, you barely scratched the surface. Thats like eating your salad at dinner, and then telling me that desert is shit. Please, do yourself a favor and keep your hole shut. Try talking about your big ego, seems like you know a lot about that.

43

Well, Mr. F-18, what can I say? You are clearly a very wise man to know who is an idiot and who is not.

I can see that you did not notice that in my post I did not refer to the USNA, as I have never been there. The USAFA and the USNA are different, so I wrote about what I personally heard, saw, or experienced.

I do not work for UAL.

How many times has our delightful leader (executive branch) put HIS life on the line for our country? (you know–the one that orders soldiers, seamen, and airmen to war)

Sorry you took such personal offense about my comparison of military and civilian pilots. I always thought that with the seemingly extensive flight training that they have in the military, that military pilots would be far better than civilian pilots. But if one makes a GENERALIZATION, I (and others) have observed over years of experience that the opposite seems true.

Do you know much about the Vietnam war? Like what was happening in Southeast Asia before the war, why we were there in the first place, what US corporations had interests there, what the Soviet Union was up to there, what we were actually doing there, what the ‘government’ of the North was like, what the government of the South was like, what soldiers’ real experiences were, what POWs’ experiences were, why we lost, why we left, what happened afterward? Learn a little and the truth shall set you free. Start with the book I listed and the other film. Another great book is one about the seven years Admiral Jeremiah Denton spent as a POW in the North after ejecting (and shattering his legs) from his F-4 over the North. Then, of course, there are so many, many more…

Who is Dean?

Michael Moore is a patriot. But perhaps you do not agree. Is this because you would you rather revoke this amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, OR OF THE PRESS; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” ?