I know this is not Tri related, but they refer in the article to a term I found interesting “Ironmanization”. in a nutshell UTMB , very popular ultra in Europe that requires points to enter, is trying to squeeze Hardrock, a US race, to pay them, in exchange to offer points as a qualifier race. I am glad hardrock is not agreeing to pay, and set an example for other races as well, what a racket!
I am glad to see my beloved Bighorn on the list of races that refuse to pay. I have only done a couple of ultras, but I regularly do shorter trail races, and I like that atmosphere at them a lot better than at triathlons. Maybe 20 years ago (before I started doing them) triathlons were more laid back, but now they are generally high strung. I noticed the change even in the attitudes at Savageman before and after it was sold (I live in the area, so I do the Oly every year), and it was sold to a good company. If trail runners got too concerned about points or some other sort of serious ranking, it would ruin the sport.
Honestly these days it seems harder to get into the big Ultras then any Ironman, with lottery systems for all and specific qualifying races, it is quiet the process just to get into one of the big races.
At the same time with the rise of interest in such races I am glad to see the organizers are working to keep the races “small” they could very easily let tons of people in to these things and the experience would suffer greatly. Ultra, for the most part, seems to be staying true to its roots in spite of the increase in participation over the years.
I’m glad Hardrock said no. While they were on the phone, maybe they should have asked UTMB pay for the privilege of being a qualifier for Hardrock!
Seriously, to me asking another event to pay to be considered a qualifier just sits uncomfortably with the ethos of ultra running.
If trail runners got too concerned about points or some other sort of serious ranking, it would ruin the sport.
This issue isn’t about rankings. Qualifying races for long ultras are about demonstrating that runners are satisfactorily fit, capable and experienced to be undertaking an event. Having even a few too many ill equipped competitors on a course has the potential to stretch medical and emergency resources if things unravel in isolated environments.
It’s not like Ironman, where anyone can come and play irrespective of their suitability to be there and if things go wrong on the run, an aidstation is only half a mile away and an ambulance pretty much has access to the entire course.
Now I think about it, I’m not sure that points and rankings would ruin the sport. In my part of the world, there has long been national ranking lists for various distances compiled by the national governing body, as well as an annual national “points race” where runners accumulate weighted points based on both frequency of participation and excellence of performance. Some years the points race is one by a “plodder” who participates widely, sometimes by an elite runner breaking national records, or even a veteran breaking age records.
Neither appears to be detrimental to the sport. Actually, quite the opposite.
Hardrock >> UTMB
Really? Which one would you want to win?
Hardrock >> UTMB
Really? Which one would you want to win?
I would think UTMB for most elite ultra runners. Greater depth of competition and probably more money and ongoing sponsorship opportunities, profile, etc. The sport is bigger than the US.
If I could do only one more long race as a hack runner, Hardrock for sure.
I’m glad Hardrock said no. While they were on the phone, maybe they should have asked UTMB pay for the privilege of being a qualifier for Hardrock!
Seriously, to me asking another event to pay to be considered a qualifier just sits uncomfortably with the ethos of ultra running.
If trail runners got too concerned about points or some other sort of serious ranking, it would ruin the sport.
This issue isn’t about rankings. Qualifying races for long ultras are about demonstrating that runners are satisfactorily fit, capable and experienced to be undertaking an event. Having even a few too many ill equipped competitors on a course has the potential to stretch medical and emergency resources if things unravel in isolated environments.
It’s not like Ironman, where anyone can come and play irrespective of their suitability to be there and if things go wrong on the run, an aidstation is only half a mile away and an ambulance pretty much has access to the entire course.
Now I think about it, I’m not sure that points and rankings would ruin the sport. In my part of the world, there has long been national ranking lists for various distances compiled by the national governing body, as well as an annual national “points race” where runners accumulate weighted points based on both frequency of participation and excellence of performance. Some years the points race is one by a “plodder” who participates widely, sometimes by an elite runner breaking national records, or even a veteran breaking age records.
Neither appears to be detrimental to the sport. Actually, quite the opposite.
Hah - I would LOVE to see the general public’s view of this statement in bold - “Hey, it’s just an Ironman - ANYONE can do it irrespective of suitability!” (Even though I know the reality isn’t too far off from that…)
While it’s interesting (and great) to see Hardrock telling UTMB to go screw themselves…the rosy image of Hardrock in here is a bit funny. That race is a good ol’ boys club top to bottom. Absolutely impossible to get into unless you’ve been there and done it before. Their formula HEAVILY rewards previous competitors to new competitors and is one of the things wrong with ultras, they pride themselves on exclusivity.
Trail running as a whole is having a rather large identity crisis. It wants to grow and be large but simultaneously doesn’t want to share itself with anyone and at all possible avenues works to remain a small niche sport.
Been to the last three U.S. Trail Running conferences (I will said Terry Chiplin who organizes them is STUNNINGLY awesome and is totally doing his part to grow the sport along with ATRA and their team) but way too many organizers and participants in the sport are “this is ours” and don’t exactly want to share, Hardrock embodies that mentality.
While it’s interesting (and great) to see Hardrock telling UTMB to go screw themselves…the rosy image of Hardrock in here is a bit funny. That race is a good ol’ boys club top to bottom. Absolutely impossible to get into unless you’ve been there and done it before. Their formula HEAVILY rewards previous competitors to new competitors and is one of the things wrong with ultras, they pride themselves on exclusivity.
Trail running as a whole is having a rather large identity crisis. It wants to grow and be large but simultaneously doesn’t want to share itself with anyone and at all possible avenues works to remain a small niche sport.
Been to the last three U.S. Trail Running conferences (I will said Terry Chiplin who organizes them is STUNNINGLY awesome and is totally doing his part to grow the sport along with ATRA and their team) but way too many organizers and participants in the sport are “this is ours” and don’t exactly want to share, Hardrock embodies that mentality.
Do you want the IM model where races look like a conga line of douchebags following each other up Everest? The mainstay of the sport can be the middle aged narcissists aiming to prove to their friends and office mates that they’ve still got it but looking for the easiest 100 in the country to do so. Say hello to Hardrock Florida. Races will be brimming with people who have never run a hundred before, planning on what tattoo they will get as they buy the first pair of running shoes they’ve bought in fifteen years. The shoes that will be seen as necessary–supershoes–will cost $1200/pair and endless debate will ensue on the Internet about how said shoes will cut two minutes off a forty-two hour time. Then in a bid to keep the punters ponying up $700/yr, courses will be flattened out, hard races shut down, aid stations put in every mile, and medical help will be omnipresent with IVs on hand for those too stupid to hydrate themselves.
While it’s interesting (and great) to see Hardrock telling UTMB to go screw themselves…the rosy image of Hardrock in here is a bit funny. That race is a good ol’ boys club top to bottom. Absolutely impossible to get into unless you’ve been there and done it before. Their formula HEAVILY rewards previous competitors to new competitors and is one of the things wrong with ultras, they pride themselves on exclusivity.
The entry system ‘HEAVILY rewards previous competitors’ (it’s actually finishers, not competitors) because it is an extremely difficult run and they don’t want to have a bunch of people out there that have no idea what they are doing. If people were constanting having to be rescued from the mountains it would jeopardize the future of the race. Also, I don’t think any ultras ‘pride themselves on exclusivity’, many of them need barriers for entry due so that they aren’t full of runners with no experience.
because it is an extremely difficult run and they don’t want to have a bunch of people out there that have no idea what they are doing. If people were constanting having to be rescued from the mountains it would jeopardize the future of the race. Also, I don’t think any ultras ‘pride themselves on exclusivity’, many of them need barriers for entry due so that they aren’t full of runners with no experience.
This. Its not that uncommon in ultra racing to be expected to prove that you can actually finish and wont die while attempting the race. Some ultras ask for points to participate in while other ultras ask for your race resume so that a committee or race director can determine if you have met the qualification standards to participate. DNF ing an ironman is very different than DNFing some races were you may end up stuck on top of a mountain or you may fall asleep on your bike and drift into oncoming traffic.
You and the gentleman above you who commented do not understand my point.
Most ultras are already pretty exclusive in qualifying because they need to ensure that participants are able to complete the course in a safe manner due to the extreme logistical challenges of providing aid on course unlike say an Ironman where a participant can be dealt with at any point on the course from start to finish with relative ease.
That has NOTHING to do with the point I am making. You can ensure the quality of competitors without excluding runners who would be capable of running. Hardrock does NOT do this. They ensure only previous finishers really have access to the event.
Take for example Western States, a brutal and legendary 100. To gain entry you must simply compete a qualifying race in a set time and then enter the lottery. This ensures you are capable of competing and finishing Western and leaves a fair playing field for entry into the race. Now take Hardrock, their formula is completely unfair to say runner X who has done 5 dozen 100’s, completed them all, etc but has never done Hardrock, he has VERY limited possibility of ever toeing the line because the odds are so stacked against him getting in due to their horrid lottery system favoring the “old guard”. It’s a good ol’ boys club. Let’s not pretend like Hardrock is protecting the sanctity of their race by keeping runners uncapable of finishing out, they’re keeping EVERYONE out who isn’t a previous finisher. Even if you volunteer and go help with trail work numerous times, your odds are still complete shit at getting in.
Hardrock is not an example we should look upon for being good for ultra running and growing the sport of trail running. They are extremely exclusive and pride themselves on it. Shit, there was even a long article about the race like two years ago in ultra runner or something and I remember wanting to throw up afterwards because you could tell they love their own farts.
Lastly, to the person who first responded to me about overcrowding and Ultras turning into Ironmans etc…That’ll never happen. Unlike Ironman, running a 100 miles is actually hard. You half ass an Ironman and you can easily finish in 18 hours. You half ass most 100s, you’re lucky if you finish in 36 hours, if you even finish at all. 100s (most of them being quite mountainous) are not comparable to Ironman in any way shape or form. Most Ironman athletes can’t even jog the marathon and Ironman athletes are considered “crazy” by the general public. If Ironmen athletes are crazy, ultra runners of the 100M community are batshit insane on steroids.
Do you want the IM model where races look like a conga line of douchebags following each other up Everest? The mainstay of the sport can be the middle aged narcissists aiming to prove to their friends and office mates that they’ve still got it but looking for the easiest 100 in the country to do so. Say hello to Hardrock Florida. Races will be brimming with people who have never run a hundred before, planning on what tattoo they will get as they buy the first pair of running shoes they’ve bought in fifteen years. The shoes that will be seen as necessary–supershoes–will cost $1200/pair and endless debate will ensue on the Internet about how said shoes will cut two minutes off a forty-two hour time. Then in a bid to keep the punters ponying up $700/yr, courses will be flattened out, hard races shut down, aid stations put in every mile, and medical help will be omnipresent with IVs on hand for those too stupid to hydrate themselves.
That made me laugh…because it’s true.
Except for the part where it’s not true at all. If you even read the article Hardrock themselves admit that it’s not feasible to host large scale 100’s in the U.S. typically due to permitting.
There already exists tons of flatter readily available 100’s that don’t sell out.
It’s incredible how three people have responded so far and all have missed the point. Throwing out an easy strawman which won’t happen and failing to address the root issue.
I gave the example of Western States vs Hardrock. Both incredibly challenging 100’s, one far more historic than the other, and yet the more legendary one has a fair system in place and hardrock does not. Hardrock is a good ol’ boys club. Want more examples, what about the AC 100? Very fair system in place. Another one? Miwok 100k, also very fair. These races remain true to their roots, accept qualified runners, but have a fair entry system.
This has nothing to do with tattoos and theoretical problems of the watering down of ultras, it has everything to do with Hardrock being lame and trying to keep new people out regardless of how talented they are and how deep their resume is. And if anyone is like, “man, he sure doesn’t like hardrock, I bet he’s just not got accepted into it before and is butthurt”. I run the 5000 on the track and have nothing to do with hardrock or ultras in general. But it’s funny to watch a few people in this thread clearly with no inkling of a clue of the ultra industry (you can run ultras and be an ultra runner and still be completely clueless on the state of the industry) not address the problem I’ve mentioned, a problem which in running circles is quite well known. Trail running wants to be a real sport but then keeps everyone away, hardrock is the classic example of that. They detract from the hard work of groups like the U.S. Trail Running Conference, ATRA, and all those pushing to get more people into the sport.
Anyone actually want to discuss that or is the strawman going to dominate the convo?
Edited to add…I forgot to mention, ultras and ultra running are WAY older than Ironman. And yet you three have mentioned it becoming like Ironman…Ultras were cool before Ironman and will be cool long after Ironman. Western States existed before the first Ironman and they’ve had no problem keeping things open to everyone in the face of huge demand increases…yet hardrock at only 25 years old can’t manage to do the same? You all have no argument.
Unlike Ironman, running a 100 miles is actually hard.
I’ve done 7 iron distance races, and one 100km ultra.
That ultra was SO MUCH harder. Ironman is just uncomfortable, ultra running breaks you down in ways you never thought of.
I can’t imagine running 100 miles, but I’ll probably do another iron race some day.
I was just contemplating Los Cabos IM last week.
Except for the part where it’s not true at all. If you even read the article Hardrock themselves admit that it’s not feasible to host large scale 100’s in the U.S. typically due to permitting.
I was laughing at the part about the cost of shoes, the tattoos, the making courses easier while increasing prices. That is Ironmanization.
If Ironmen athletes are crazy, ultra runners of the 100M community are batshit insane on steroids.
So funny! I’m training for my first 100k now and when people ask why I’m doing this I can only laugh and say “cuz I’m stoopid!” 
Some of the stories from this year’s Western States are epic tales of being totally shattered but still going through the night. Kaci’s story is a perfect example of what it takes to finish when every bit of you just wants to stop.
If 100 mile people are batshit insane on steroids what does that say about people who do Barkley?
What in the world are you talking about? Literally only 33 slots are guaranteed for people who have finished hard rock more than 5 times. 30% of entrants are guaranteed to be first timers, people who have never started hardrock before. I fail to see how guaranteeing 33 slots for people who have finished hardrock more than 5 times makes it an “old boys club”. And btw if those 33 slots of 5+ finishers arent filled up the remaining slots are reallocated. And can you please tell me which running circles is hard rock being talked about as being an old boys club? Because in the 100 milers ive run, the ultramarathoners ive trained with, and ultras ive crewed at ive never heard such a thing.
It’s interesting to read your perspective, justarunner. As something of an outsider, thanks for the detailed thoughts.
There already exists tons of flatter readily available 100’s that don’t sell out.
I gave the example of Western States vs Hardrock. Both incredibly challenging 100’s, one far more historic than the other, and yet the more legendary one has a fair system in place and hardrock does not. Hardrock is a good ol’ boys club. Want more examples, what about the AC 100? Very fair system in place. Another one? Miwok 100k, also very fair. These races remain true to their roots, accept qualified runners, but have a fair entry system.
Trail running wants to be a real sport but then keeps everyone away, hardrock is the classic example of that. They detract from the hard work of groups like the U.S. Trail Running Conference, ATRA, and all those pushing to get more people into the sport.
I have trouble reconciling your comments about WSER, AC 100, Miwok and the numerous “100s that don’t sell out” with the statement I bolded. On one hand you appear to tout Hardrock’s perceived exclusivity as the bane of the growth of the sport, yet concede that many (most?) races get it right.
Chuy beat me with some numbers re Hardrock’s entry process. http://hardrock100.com/hardrock-lottery.php
While 45 places (30%) for first timers may be considered low, as an ultramarathon race organiser I can appreciate in some respects where the HR organisers are coming from.
Hardrock isn’t WSER. It’s another level of difficulty beyond. The degree of difficulty, the altitude, the remoteness, the possibility of extreme weather are all amped up. Competitor safety is the primary concern.
From my experience as a RD, generally speaking, first time athletes are greater concern for our medical team, even in a race with appreciable qualifying standards. Of the many contributing factors to the success of our newbies, one is particularly relevant to the Hardrock system, that being familiarity with course and the race.
Those who have crewed, paced or volunteered in our race are more likely to be successful debutantes. I assume that this is in part something that Hardrock is trying to foster by allocating tickets to those who have performed duties in trail maintenance and volunteering. I have two friends who have run HR multiple times who arrive early to acclimatise and assist with the course marking. For others, race volunteering for 5 years gains an extra lottery ticket. As well as helping these runners being better prepared for HR (hence lessening the potential strain on medical/emergency resources on race day), these practices also help ensure a viable volunteer load to ensure the race’s future.
For our race, we see the value of having a 50/50 split between returning and new runners. It ensures there are wise heads out there on the race course. During the early stages of the race, small clusters of runners pace themselves with, and glean advice from, the old hands.
There is also an intangible value that our returning runners bring to our race; they contribute significantly in fostering the race’s warm and inclusive atmosphere which has become a hallmark that is culturally ingrained in our event. We can’t buy that or artificially manufacture it, but with a core of wonderful people returning each year as runners, volunteers or support crews, we can maintain that tradition. I doubt we could “reinvent” such a rewarding, fulfilling race experience every year with a high turnover of new runners.
I have never run Hardrock (my only application was unsuccessful) or even seen the race, but I suspect some of what holds true for our race may be true for HR. Sometimes these issues are not so black and white.
Chuy
Apologies, justarunner, for the highly edited quote:
…I forgot to mention, ultras and ultra running are WAY older than Ironman. …Ultras were cool before Ironman and will be cool long after Ironman. Western States existed before the first Ironman …
…and ultras existed way before WSER too. Few sports have a history with accurate competitive records that pre-date the modern Olympics.