Tufo RR Test Results - Vittoria data added

Like many on this forum I have been using Tufo tubulars for sometime. In fact, most of my miles in 2005 have been on a set of Reynolds Cirro SV with Tufo S33 Specials taped with the Tufo Extreme tape. All of the recent talk of poor rolling resistance with Tufo tires was a surprise to me. I was unable to find any solid data on the Tufo rolling resistance on the web with the exception of a German Magazine article that I can’t read. As such, last week I solicited recommendations from this forum for a simple test. In my opinion the best suggestion was a roll down test. On Saturday morning armed with a piece of chalk, 3 sets of wheels, 4 sets of tires, a GPS, and a tape measure I set off to conduct the best experiment I could perform with my limited resources. I am aware that my test has many shortfalls and uncontrolled variables so take it for what it cost you.

The Venue

I selected a quite street 1 block away from my home. The asphalt road was re-paved last year and is in very good condition. I selected this road because it has a slight <1% declined followed by a long flat section. I parked my car at the crest of the road with my wheels and using my chalk I marked the starting line on the road. I then marked X’s every approximately 75 feet to assist in maintaining a constant line. During the hour it took to complete all of the coasting runs the temperature was a constant 62 degrees, overcast with zero wind.

The Bike

I used my Trek 5200 with traditional road bars because it would be easier to handle at the slow starting and finishing speeds. The chain was also removed to eliminate any cassette drag variables. Finally I wore running shoes so that I didn’t have to manage clipping and unclipping at low speeds and to make it easier to run the bike back to the top of the street (remember no chain).

The Tires and Wheels

As mentioned I had 3 sets of wheels and 4 sets of tires. All wheelset were inspected to insure that the bearings were rolling smoothly. All tires were inflated to 115 psi. The wheelsets were: Carbon Reynolds Cirro SV with Tufo S33 special tires mounted with extreme Tufo tape. This is a low profile (23mm) carbon rim with hidden nipples laced to super smooth White Industries LTA hubs with 20 spokes front, 24 spokes rear. (tubular) Mavic Ksyrium SSC with Michelin Pro Race 23mm tires. (clincher) Mavic CXP33 rims with Campagnolo Record 10sp hubs laced with 32 Revolution spokes front and 32 Competition spokes rear. (clincher) Mavic Ksyrium SSC with 23mm Specialized Mario Cipollini tires. (clincher)

The Coasting Runs

A coasting run would start with me leaning against my car with the front wheel on the start line. I would “let go” not “push off” of the car and start down the road careful to hit each chalk mark along the way. My legs stayed steady with the cranks at 12 and 6 o’clock, my elbows where locked and I looked strait ahead. When the bike would no longer move forward I would place a foot on the ground and mark the location of the front wheel. Each wheel and tire was run 3 consecutive times with the exception of the Reynolds/Tufo wheels which were run a fourth and fifth time at the end of the test. Two runs where not marked because a car drove by which could have effected the test results. At the conclusion of the tests I used the GPS to measure to one of the middle finishing spots and then measured all of the other marks with a tape measure from that fixed location. This would reduce any measurement error.

Average Distances (meters)

S33/Rey 233.56

CXP/ProR 263.58

Ksy/Cipo 254.14

Ksy/ProR 265.63

http://epsilon.applepics.com/52/userfiles/427fff7d8b7f3.jpg

Discussion

Clearly there was a difference between the different tire and wheel combinations. One of the surprising things (or at least to me) was the relative tightness of the distribution for a given tire and wheel combination. The obvious question is “are the differences in the means statistically significant at any reasonable confidence level”.

Well it has been a few years but I dusted of my student copy of SAS and imported the data. The following graphic should do a reasonable job helping everyone visualize the data. The “Green Diamonds” represent the 95% confidence intervals for the mean of any given tire/wheel combination. It is clear that the means of the Pro Race tires mounted on either the CXP33 wheels or the Ksyriums are not statistically different. That is to say the if we conducted enough runs we could well find out that the true mean distance that this tire/wheel would roll is the same. Further more, the “Green Diamonds” of the Ksyrium/Cipo combination are just touching CXP33/ProRace which is to say that the means could be the same within the 95% confidence intervals. I didn’t bother to rerun the model at a lower confidence level but I suspect if we were to drop the confidence level down to 80% the means would comeback statistically different. Finally, it is obvious that the Reynolds/Tufo combination is statically different from any of the other tire/wheel combinations tested at a 95% confidence.

With that out of the way what did I really answer? Well I know that my fancy carbon wheels with my taped Tufos don’t roll for shit compared to my basic 32 spoked Mavic CXP33’s with Pro Race tires. What I don’t know for sure is the cause of the poor rolling. Is it the White Industries LTA hubs? I doubt it because they sure spin smoothly on the truing stand. Is it an aerodynamic difference? Unlikely because the Reynolds have 12 fewer spokes in front and 8 fewer spokes in the rear as well as hidden nipples. Is it the Tufo tires? Is it the Tufo tape? I don’t know for sure but this data does converge with some of the antidotal evidence recently posted on this forum.

Next Steps

I have a new pair of Vittoria EVO CX tubulars that I am going to glue on the Reynolds rims and test. It should be interesting to see if the distance differs from the Tufo runs. When I conduct the next test I will run the CXP33/ProRace combination to provide a baseline for atmospheric differences.

Other Notes

At the end of all the runs I made one last run with the Reynolds/Tufo setup inflated to 150psi. The run fell a good 10 meters short of the previous shortest mark. As such I didn’t even bother to mark and pursue higher-pressure runs.

The Raw Data

Tire/Wh Distance (meters)

S33/Rey 231.49

S33/Rey 231.74

S33/Rey 234.54

S33/Rey 236.47

CXP/ProR 267.43

CXP/ProR 264.00

CXP/ProR 259.30

Ksy/Cipo 251.76

Ksy/Cipo 252.77

Ksy/Cipo 257.88

Ksy/ProR 268.50

Ksy/ProR 264.74

Ksy/ProR 263.64

I’ve got 5 runs finished of a planned 15 on my own test. I think I can get the other 10 done this week, and I’ll post my results. There are some strong hints so far, but I want to satisfy the statistician/engineer who is looking over my shoulder on this test.

I read your test with great interest and I am eager to see the final outcome. Let me know if I can help.

Hey - kudos.

Really good job on this - all the obvious caveats apply, but given the huge limitations of the test format, this is a really good presentation - thanks.

.

Either you or Ashburn or rmur planning on running tests with tufos + glue, tufos + tufo tape, vittoria + glue, vittoria + tufo tape to see if we can isolate if it is A) the Tufo tires, B) the Tufo tape, C) both.

My own suspicion is C). Howat’s test on the Tufo tape shows it takes significantly less torque to remove a taped tire, meaning, it is more likely that there is tire “squirm” on a taped tire. The thickness of the Tufo tape also speaks for itself in terms of negatively affecting RR. And the Tufo tires with their heavy, “rubberized” sidewalls, seem to definitively be more resistant to deformation, thus increasing RR.

I’d be curious to see if we can chalk up X percentage of the increased RR to the tufo tape and Y percentage to the Tufo tires…

well, you guys have already convinced me to dump the Tufos and the tape.

I’ve ordered a pair of Vittoria Corsas, does the sealant work only on Tufo?

Sealant helps with any tire, but won’t be as good as on any non-Tufo due to major differences in construction. But the sealant still should seal small punctures, just not ones as large as Tufo says. Actual difference, I dunno. But the sealant won’t hurt. It is just liquid latex.

Very interesting. I’m not sure if I posted, but originally thought BS to the theory.

My eyes are open and enjoyed your research. I’m not an engineer, but am a statistical guy and enjoyed your presentation…

I also enjoyed your roll test vs. power influenced. It makes more sense to me…with less confusion.

thanks, keep it coming…

If I knew this was how you were going to run your test, I would have sent some other wheel/tire combos to try.

Could you briefy say how much use each tire had prior to testing?

I would love to test the “tufos + glue, tufos + tufo tape, vittoria + glue, vittoria + tufo tape” but the tape stays with the tire when it is removed from the rim leaving the tire worthless. I do have a new set of Tufo S3 lites but I was planning on returning them. I suppose that I could glue them, test them, then glue the Vittorias that I have. That would only leave us without a taped set of Vittorias…

One thing on Howat’s test, if I remember correctly he cut up a rim and cut up a tire then glued or taped the tire to the rim section. The Tufo tape requires that the tire be inflated and ridden inorder for the the glue in the tape to be activated. Of course it could be another test that I am thinking of.

Very nice work! The question I have is: How do I get these graphs on SAS?

Just when I thought I’d seen it all on ST! :slight_smile:

I also thought the theory was total BS. If you search my past posts you can see that I came right out and said so. However, Ashburn’s tests made me curious enough to try something.

The roll down concept was not mine but rather a suggestion from a forum poster. I also liked the simplicity of it.

The tire milage on all the tires is what I would call broken-in. They all had the molding marks worn off and they were in the first 25% of their expected life. Sort of the sweet spot where a tire “feels” good.

Ron

I used a student version call JMPIN which is published by SAS. It is a nice little piece of software and it was free when I was in business school… well part of the student fees.

This is a really impressive effort. It is very generous of you to take the time to provide this detailed information for everyones benefit. Has TUFO offered you any money to forgo the testing of the vittoria tubulars or just delete this post? Has michelin offered you money for the rights to use your data in their marketing. I road my Kysriums with a new set of Michelin Pro race tires in a crit on Sunday, this is a really smooth setup, nice tires and sweet hubs.

I eagerly await the results with another tubular. Do I need a new wheelset or just new tires? Really interesting about the higher pressure (I know there was only one run) showing worse results. It seems so intuitive that higher pressure would lower rolling resistance, but the data usually doesn’t lie. Even if this experiment settles the empirical question that TUFOs roll poorly, it will still be difficult to figure out why. Seems like the only thing TUFOs have going now is puncture resistance; is this going to be debunked to?

Where are you located? Any chance of a local shop “co-sponsoring” your research by allowing a wheel manufacturer (Reynolds, Zipp, Mavic, Easton, etc) to send you demo fleet. (Not that I’m tossing all of this on your shoulders).

FWIW - if you do the tape/non-tape test…could you also run with NO tape or glue! Seems like a safe enough control and would be a darn good way of testing the tires before taping them…

thanks again. nice info!

Opps…just talked to my Tufo-using engineer buddy. He wasn’t surprised claiming “inertia and rolling resistance are totally different”. I laughed and told him to sign up for SlowTwitch…

Either you or Ashburn or rmur planning on running tests with tufos + glue, tufos + tufo tape, vittoria + glue, vittoria + tufo tape to see if we can isolate if it is A) the Tufo tires, B) the Tufo tape, C) both.

I’m testing only that which I own – Tufo S3 with Conti glue versus Michelin Pro Race with standard inner tube.

My trick is to normalize for the effect of two different rims. If I can do it to a satisfying degree of statistical confidence, I’ll post the results.

Actually, I’ll post the results either way – what I actually post will be whatever data I find, even if it is a non-conclusive result.

Thanks for taking your time to conduct these tests and write up your results. I can see that you took great care, no doubt influenced by the fear of criticism that comes with posting on slowtwitch. The naysayers that claim you can’t get consistent results with the roll-down test have something to think about.

Your results are much more significant that I would have expected, and fairly convincing. The good news for all us Tufo user’s is we just figured out how to get faster for relatively few bucks. It will be quite interesting to see how Ashburn’s data compares; if his is similar then we have 3 cases showing Tufo significantly slower (counting Jens’).

The tape could likely be significant. The smooth road probably favors the Tufo’s if anything, but it is a good place to do the test because you will have less variation due to hitting different bumps. 1% is quite a shallow hill though, what was the speed down the hill?

This is definitely one of the most useful contributions I have seen on slowtwitch.

It seems so intuitive that higher pressure would lower rolling resistance, but the data usually doesn’t lie.

Intuitive perhaps, but high pressures (beyond ~115-125) generally lower rr on real-world roads. Only on a track do high pressures provide an advantage.

I am testing both tires at 115.

At some point, I might do a run or two at 125 just for kicks to see if there is an indication of an increase in rr. Since so many tubular fans insist on running 150-160+, perhaps I should test the Tufo that way. I have a feeling that would so overly handicap the Tufo that it wouldn’t be a fair test. There is a limit to how many times I’m going to ride a 2.5 mile loop at 6 am.

In fact, when this the rolling resistance topic came up on this forum I email Tufo and asked their opinion. Here is the reply that I received:

"Hello Ron,

thank you for this one, for the time being we can not comment on the subject, we have to conduct series of tests ourselves first to come to a valid conclusion."

Nice work…and I didn’t think a rollout test was a good idea but this looks solid.

I guess this just proves I should trust my gut (doing the vindication dance!):

http://www.cruciblefitness.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2221&SearchTerms=power
http://www.coachgordo.com/forum2/upload/index.php?showtopic=603&st=0 (about 1/3 the way down)

Didn’t really occur to me until recently that it might be the tires but I knew something was wrong. I had many more runs and points than those I posted about but I took such a pasting each time I figured it wasn’t worth it ;). My mind was made up before this season even started that I was completely ditching the current setup.

ot

I am in the Los Angeles area so if anyone wants to help feel free. I doubt that shops want to “co-sponsor” anything they are just trying to stay alive in the retail world. Manufacturer’s have very little to gain by having yet another “internet wacko” testing their equipment.

I have considered doing a no tape & no glue test be I am worried that I’ll I am really testing is how tight the tubular fits the rim.

I also wondered about the inertia vs rolling resistance issue. The reynolds are lighter wheels and would have less inertia when I hit the flats. But I am not an engineer so I’m the wrong guy to ask.