It’s been a while since I was involved in telecommunications networks.
A friend of our family was hit and run (literally left for dead). Air Ambulance exac’d to emergency and on life support for several days.
I am not trying to interfere with the family who is supporting their recovering son, but also seeing if I can be useful in any capacity. Once we download his Garmin data we will have the exact time he was hit. Location is know due to emergency services showing up.
I THINK it should be possible to pin point any cell phone that was in the exact location at the same time. One would below to the friend, the other would belong to the driver. There could be multiple cell phones in the car (or zero).
Do the carriers would have which subscibers are in which cell at which time, but the actual “range” and lat long I don’t know they have unless in the LTE protocol, the phone publishes its GPS coordinates inside whatever packet that data gets broadcasted on for the purpose of cell tower connection and hand off. I would assume it exists somewhere in the LTE protocol in which case the carriers have it.
Any input from the smart guys working in the field. I assume there is come location based services triangulation possible with the basic LTE protocol if an application is not transmitting GPS coordinates as part of the application that was running on the phone at the time. The reason I ask, is because the police would have no idea which applications are running so no where to start to request records (and privacy laws may come into play anyway). But the wireless carriers would minimally have who is in the coverage areas…the question is pinpointing it.
surely the cops would need a warrant to go get the cell phone location data. and they would have to deal with whomever is running the towers in the area, since you would not know what carrier the driver used - of course you would have to prove he (1) even had a cell phone and that (2) he had it with him and (3) had it on at the time of the accident and (4) the pinged signal didn’t belong to another person
good luck to the family but seems like a longshot, to say the least
In Ontario at least it’s all possible; it’s called a “tower dump”
-yes, the cell carriers will have the data. They’ll know all the devices connected to their network at the time
-yes, the police can obtain that data but they used to need a “Production Order” which is essentially a search warrant for 3rd party data compelling that business to turn it over
But
In the past at least, those warrants were problematic. Police sweeps of cellphone data in ‘tower dumps’ face charter challenge | CBC News
I’m not sure where the law currently sits on it so I made a call and I’m waiting for an answer.
In Ontario at least it’s all possible; it’s called a “tower dump”
-yes, the cell carriers will have the data. They’ll know all the devices connected to their network at the time
-yes, the police can obtain that data but they used to need a “Production Order” which is essentially a search warrant for 3rd party data compelling that business to turn it over
But
In the past at least, those warrants were problematic. Police sweeps of cellphone data in ‘tower dumps’ face charter challenge | CBC News
I’m not sure where the law currently sits on it so I made a call and I’m waiting for an answer.
Hey, thanks for that info. I don’t know exactly where the police investigation stands and what they are doing to triangulate who was at the scene at the time it all happened. I am just trying to arm the family when they are ready to push that angle. Right now, they were first worried about the loved one suriviving (which I think he is out of the woods on, moved to trauma unit from ICU). Often it is helpful if there is a push from the victim family side because you don’t really know how aggressively the person/team assigned to it are “on it”.
The FBI would need to get involved. During the now famous Murdaugh trial the FBI communications expert triangulated specific cell sectors and individual phone data packets pushed to those sectors to show the time stamped path of the phone location which ultimately did him in. I would highly doubt local authorities or even a state agency would have the technology and expertise to stitch it together. Most companies don’t store data for longer than 5-10 days.
Every time I run across one of these cyclist vs. vehicle I’m leaning more and more to a camera/radar setup for outdoor rides.
Any input from the smart guys working in the field. I assume there is come location based services triangulation possible with the basic
Yes, location is fundamental to the underlying protocol. With or without GPS - GPS is just used to improve accuracy. The carrier will have the info. I don’t know the full legal process to compel them to share that data.
The simple answer is some cell tower potentially has that data. That Phone1 and Phone2 were at the same location at the same time. The tower would record the IMEI for each device, which eventually link back to subscriber information. Not only phones but any other devices that were pinging the cell tower. Many/most newer cars have LTE/5G infotainment systems that would also ping the tower. So there could be both a phone and car that could link the hit and run driver.
Dev, I assume that this happened in Canada so I haven’t a clue about Canadian law.
In the US, law enforcement would first seek a preservation order to preserve the data so that it doesn’t get purged prior to the issuance of a search warrant. A search warrant is needed for a tower dump/cell site location info (CLSI). There continues to be legal wrangling in the US over tower dumps because it’s different from asking for something like Dev’s CLSI data from your phone on X date. It’s asking for every connection to the tower(s) during X date and time. So it would contain data on potentially thousands of innocent bystanders. Many feel that’s a legal overreach. So far the courts have allowed the dumps to continue.
Legal hurdles aside, the data could be relatively easy to impossible to parse and analyze. Tower data for a tower located in some sparsely populated rural area might be easy to parse through as there would be few connections around a given date and time. Parsing through data from a tower near Times Square in Manhattan would be next to impossible.
The FBI would need to get involved. During the now famous Murdaugh trial the FBI communications expert triangulated specific cell sectors and individual phone data packets pushed to those sectors to show the time stamped path of the phone location which ultimately did him in. I would highly doubt local authorities or even a state agency would have the technology and expertise to stitch it together. Most companies don’t store data for longer than 5-10 days.
Every time I run across one of these cyclist vs. vehicle I’m leaning more and more to a camera/radar setup for outdoor rides.
The FBI CAST and CART folks are very good at this type of stuff but we don’t have a monopoly on it. There are some very good folks that do this on the state and local levels as well. But yes… the FBI has resources most other agencies do not.
The simple answer is some cell tower potentially has that data. That Phone1 and Phone2 were at the same location at the same time. The tower would record the IMEI for each device, which eventually link back to subscriber information. Not only phones but any other devices that were pinging the cell tower. Many/most newer cars have LTE/5G infotainment systems that would also ping the tower. So there could be both a phone and car that could link the hit and run driver.
Dev, I assume that this happened in Canada so I haven’t a clue about Canadian law.
In the US, law enforcement would first seek a preservation order to preserve the data so that it doesn’t get purged prior to the issuance of a search warrant. A search warrant is needed for a tower dump/cell site location info (CLSI). There continues to be legal wrangling in the US over tower dumps because it’s different from asking for something like Dev’s CLSI data from your phone on X date. It’s asking for every connection to the tower(s) during X date and time. So it would contain data on potentially thousands of innocent bystanders. Many feel that’s a legal overreach. So far the courts have allowed the dumps to continue.
Legal hurdles aside, the data could be relatively easy to impossible to parse and analyze. Tower data for a tower located in some sparsely populated rural area might be easy to parse through as there would be few connections around a given date and time. Parsing through data from a tower near Times Square in Manhattan would be next to impossible.
This is very helpful. It was in the province of Ontario in Canada on a very sparsely trafficked rural road at around 8:50 am on a Saturday morning.
I did not think about the newer vehicles that have LTE telemetry built in. That would be hugely useful
Anyhoo… sparsely trafficked rural road at 8:50 AM on a Saturday is likely easy peasy. Armed with the data it’s a matter of sorting an csv/excel file and matching approximate dates and times. Then it’s matching subscriber info to the cell tower IMEI info. Done! In theory it can be that easy.
Anyhoo… sparsely trafficked rural road at 8:50 AM on a Saturday is likely easy peasy. Armed with the data it’s a matter of sorting an csv/excel file and matching approximate dates and times. Then it’s matching subscriber info to the cell tower IMEI info. Done! In theory it can be that easy.
This is what I am hoping. We just need to download his garmin data to the second he stopped moving then we have the location and time and any other phones/LTE connections at that spot can then be traced back in some capacity. Maybe the cops are already on this, but I don’t know, because they may not know the exact time at that location YET. The athlete is in no condition to do a download, but I am hoping that if we just put his garmin close to his phone and sync with Bluetooth the ride data will be uploaded to Strava, and then we’re set.
I was in touch with the family (without putting too much out there in public), the suspected culprit aparently has been identified. The police had the athlete’s iPhone and smartwatch and Strava info to work with. I take it that gave them the starting point they needed. The other good news is he has been able to sit up in the trauma unit and even eat solids again after 10 days.
In any case, it is probably a good idea to just active our electronics when we head out to ride. I personally don’t measure every ride/run because I just end up racing myself if I am measuring something which is not a good idea (If I see a number I want to beat it) and most of the time, I bike ride without a phone because I don’t want to be contacted by work related things (because there is always something), but maybe I should activate all the tracking electronics I have in case something like this happens.
the suspected culprit aparently has been identified. … he has been able to sit up in the trauma unit and even eat solids again after 10 days.
Glad to hear about both.
Just, to armchair QB here - you’d need more than the cell phone data, right? Damage to the car, ID from the cyclist, etc?
Of course. Cell phone data the puts two phones and maybe a vehicle at the same place and time is circumstantial. Physical evidence would still be key.
Another thing to consider is the vehicle telematics in addition to the GPS data. Info might show the car braked or stopped at that time. It might show it was in a collision. Things like that. Cell phone and vehicle forensics are a powerful tool.
Of course. Cell phone data the puts two phones and maybe a vehicle at the same place and time is circumstantial. Physical evidence would still be key.
Another thing to consider is the vehicle telematics in addition to the GPS data. Info might show the car braked or stopped at that time. It might show it was in a collision. Things like that. Cell phone and vehicle forensics are a powerful tool.
Sure. Just that there are still plenty of cars on the road without GPS, phones run out of battery, etc. Though, car data showing a collision, that sounds more like Smoking Gun territory.
Of course. Cell phone data the puts two phones and maybe a vehicle at the same place and time is circumstantial. Physical evidence would still be key.
Another thing to consider is the vehicle telematics in addition to the GPS data. Info might show the car braked or stopped at that time. It might show it was in a collision. Things like that. Cell phone and vehicle forensics are a powerful tool.
Sure. Just that there are still plenty of cars on the road without GPS, phones run out of battery, etc. Though, car data showing a collision, that sounds more like Smoking Gun territory.
I have not talked in detail with the family (obviously giving them their space, and they will use me as a mentor of sorts on the rehab and post head injury side of things as applicable), but from what I gather, the police had identified the person in question. Laying charges etc etc etc, as you all pointed out, the hard evidence beyond the triangulation of who else was there at the same time/space will be needed.
For now, the focus is on moving on with life and rehab. No amount of court follow up can restore health. That is up to the athlete and no one else. If there are charges and any monetary settlements (he is an engineer who will not be able to go to place of work for many months) related to pain, suffering, and inability to conduct his profession and career growth etc, well that is a different topic. But often, if there is a culprit on the other side who left the scene, simple identification of who is involved can give the family a degree of coming to terms and there will be a lot of coming to terms in the months ahead. I know personally that I still deal with coming to terms withe reduced phyical abilities from when accidents impacted me, but fortunately the brain functions are good for doing my profession. The sport part and day to day physical ailments I think we all come to peace with anyway whether it is a one shot catastrophic event, or a gradual decline, but for a 28 year old, if he has limited physical abilities after this it will be trying for sure.
For hitting her he should be held financially responsible. For leaving her to die he should be beaten to an inch of his life and left on a deserted road.