A lot of people have been positive to the induction of triathlon as a NCAA sport as a way to improve American triathletes stand in the world. Especially in the Olympics. But one thing that has not been discussed is the possibility for NCAA triathlon to be a place where international students dominate.
I am not saying it is right or wrong, just that it has not been part of the discussion.
As an example of a NCAA sport that is international, just look at cross country skiing. This is from today’s NCAA championship. Top three for the women’s race and top five for the men’s.
In the midst of what looked like a cloudy April day, Anja Gruber of the University of Vermont won the women’s 5 k individual classic at NCAAs in Midway, Utah this Thursday with a time of 13:38.4. The senior from Germany bested Denver University’s Sylvia Nordskar by slightly less than nine seconds to take the lead in the culmination of the 2014 collegiate season. University of New Mexico’s Eva Severru of Slovenia took third (+22.6), completing the European sweep. Nicole Bathe of the University of Alaska Fairbanks was the first American, finishing fourth (+29.0).
The trend continued with Europeans from western schools taking the top five spots in the men’s 10 k individual classic. Norwegian Rune Ødegaard claimed the win for the University of Colorado with a time of 24:34.5. He was followed by Frenchman Pierre Guedon of the University of Denver in second (+11.3) and Swede Niklas Persson of the University of Utah in third (+26.4). Kyle Bratrud of Northern Michigan University was the top American, finishing sixth (+49.9). http://blogs.fasterskier.com/collegiate/2014/03/06/gruber-odegaard-lead-european-dominance-at-ncaas/
Oh it will happen. Just like track and cross country. I predict we will have a sudden onslaught of Aussie female athletes sending inquires
to schools with tri programs.
Many people get very upset when someone questions this process with a mindset, “let the best compete.” My thought is these people do not pay taxes and should not be given scholarships. If they want to come over here and compete in any NCAA sport they are very welcome. But to give them scholarship is mind boggling.
Sorry about that. It would be utterly stupid to allow it, scholarship to a non tax paying foreign student coming to US. I am sure no European country would do that for a foreign student. Than, on the other hand, we hand out free housing in US too. Go figure. For the record, born and raised in Europe, living in States for the last 20 years.
Halvard - This is exactly what I’ve been saying since the initial conversations I’ve participated in regarding the possibility of Triathlon becoming an NCAA sport for women. Those in USAT and individuals who think that NCAA schools who decide to award athletics scholarships in Triathlon are going to limit them to US athletes have their heads in the sand. I speak from the perspective of being a 10+ year NCAA coach in both running and skiing. Skiing is the example I have pointed to. In the EISA (eastern colleges) there are only 4 schools that can award athletic scholarships to skiers-UVM, UNH, Boston College, St Mikes (the other 11 schools are all DIII or Ivy League, where the division or league has rules prohibiting athletic scholarships). The limit is 7.0 scholarships for women skiers, 6.3 for men. Boston College is new to the league, Alpine only, and I’m not sure if they offer any scholarships. St Mike’s does not offer any. UVM and UNH I would speculate award near the NCAA limits, but I could be wrong about that. If BC, UVM, UNH all offer the NCAA max that means 21 women and 18.9 men are receiving athletic scholarships for skiing, out of approximately 375 skiers on the rosters of all the teams in the league, but I suspect the total is significantly lower than that, maybe 15 available for women and 12 for men. UVM has 11 international students on their roster, UNH has 8. I suspect that the majority of international students on NCAA Skiing rosters are receiving substantial athletic scholarships. That may not be the case, but it was for the vast majority that I talked with over the years. The western colleges (RMISA) are mostly larger DI state schools so I suspect there is more scholarship money available for skiers at those colleges, but as you can see from the results their rosters have a lot of international skiers. Bottom line, trying to sell Triathlon as a guarantee that more US kids will be able to get athletic scholarships goes against what the facts would indicate.
Note that student-athletes at DIII colleges and Ivy League schools other DI and DII college that don’t award athletic scholarships might be getting substantial financial aid, but that’s not a part of this discussion. That kind of aid is available to all students, it’s just not related to athletics.
Ty - NCAA sports, especially on the DI level, are not about making decisions that are in the best interest of the taxpayers. If they were, then most likely we’d get rid of college sports totally. You can’t get mad at the coaches who try to recruit the best athletes if those athletes happen to live outside the US, the coaches are just playing within the system that has been created. Would you also say that academic, civic, and special interest scholarships should not be available to high school students from outside the US? I’ve known a lot of college students from other countries, I’ve even recruited a few for my teams. Most are nice kids who through a combination of talent and hard work have put themselves in a position to earn the opportujnity to get a college education. It shouldn’t boggle your mind that if the goal of the top level teams is to compete for an NCAA Championship, that those coaches are going to bring in the best talent they can find, no matter where that student comes from.
d2xcoach, I appreciate your response and see your point. I don’t necessarily blame the coaches. Although I do admire Colorado’s Wetmore who does not give scholarships to Int’l athletes.
And I don’t blame the students either. But I do blame the schools. I seriously doubt any European country would award a scholarship to a U.S. citizen over one of their own. It just doesn’t make sense.
We bring them over, house them, educate them, and give them world class training. Then they go home and compete for their country in the Olympics against us.
There was one female cross runner who came over, got a nursing degree and a scholarship and promptly left and runs professionally for her country. Now getting into a nursing program is pretty competitive these days. So in my mind (although she seemed like a very nice young lady) she not only took a prized athletic scholarship from someone but she also took a spot from someone in the nursing program. Needless to say she hasn’t used her degree.
Except the American junior girls aren’t playing 2nd fiddle to anyone in JE ITU. They are holding their own just as well as any other country.
NCAA athletics most of the time is a cut throat business. It’s a win or go get another job, so if an foreign athlete can help make your team better, they are going to get a look. But lets not act like American juniors are playing 2nd fiddle to anyone, that just isn’t a very portrayal of how good our American juniors are.
ETA: I have no clue how developed the junior talent is in cross country skiing. But if the OP is trying to assume that the same talent level is for our American juniors in triathlon, the OP is going to be sadly mistaken. The American juniors are as strong as any foreign athlete over the past 2-3 years, and it’s only going to increase in quality. That isn’t to say it’s going to not allow foreign athletes, I just don’t think that the juniors are on the same level of weakness as American junior xc skiers are.
Couldn’t agree more: the presence of int’l athletes can only help US athletes get better.
I have 2 boys who just finished running D1 track and they could care less where the competition was from. I was the one who was finding out and telling them "u just beat/or got beat by the Aus Natl champ.
Couldn’t agree more: the presence of int’l athletes can only help US athletes get better.
I have 2 boys who just finished running D1 track and they could care less where the competition was from. I was the one who was finding out and telling them "u just beat/or got beat by the Aus Natl champ.
Great. And they are welcome. No one is debating this. Let them compete and come to the U.S so your boys can mix it up with them. Just not on scholarship.
d2xcoach, I appreciate your response and see your point. I don’t necessarily blame the coaches. Although I do admire Colorado’s Wetmore who does not give scholarships to Int’l athletes.
And I don’t blame the students either. But I do blame the schools. I seriously doubt any European country would award a scholarship to a U.S. citizen over one of their own. It just doesn’t make sense.
We bring them over, house them, educate them, and give them world class training. Then they go home and compete for their country in the Olympics against us.
There was one female cross runner who came over, got a nursing degree and a scholarship and promptly left and runs professionally for her country. Now getting into a nursing program is pretty competitive these days. So in my mind (although she seemed like a very nice young lady) she not only took a prized athletic scholarship from someone but she also took a spot from someone in the nursing program. Needless to say she hasn’t used her degree.
Just one comment. Even a D1 program is not necessary consider world class, especially not on skiing. Sport and education is not combined in Europe so you cannot compare the two system. Remember, in Europe you are professional in the American definition from you start competing. Also, you can study in several countries in Europe as an American and do not pay for other than housing like the rest of the students.
My whole point was that becoming a NCAA sport does not automatically make the sport 100% American or really pushing performance.
My whole point was that becoming a NCAA sport does not automatically make the sport 100% American or really pushing performance.
Agree on the first section, 100% disagree on the second. I would be very surprised if there were not international students in the “NCAA Triathlon” programs from the start, heck there already some international competitors on the men’s side of collegiate triathlon. Where you lose me is by equating this with not “pushing performance.” To me, a more competitive, international field shows American athletes that they have to earn spots on an NCAA team, and it legitimizes the NCAA status. American juniors have held their own in international competition in the recent years, so it shouldn’t be like international students have some unfair advantage in earning scholarships. If there is a higher level of competition here in the States (sidebar, when was the last time you saw a significant number of European or Australian juniors race/train in North America for an extended period of time?) it should drive up interest and performance across the board, especially in the draft legal format.
Now the question of “should US taxpayer money be spent on foreign students” is a different conversation. I understand those that are against giving aid to foreign athletes, especially when some head directly back to their home country. The counter would be that the US has long been a land of opportunity and attempted meritocracy. If they bring some value to the university, the school should be allowed to decide who gets rewarded.
I can’t believe how many people are against international students on scholarships. I’m an aussie who came over to the states on athletic scholarship to play tennis and have been in the states 5 years. I’ve been involved in 3 different athletic programs and I have never even heard mention of not allowing international athletes. Like Brooks said, NCAA is a cut throat business. Coaches are under a lot of pressure to win. If you want to grow triathlon in the states, international athletes are going to be a huge help. I would be surprised if you think you are going to have any American athletes that want to go anywhere on scholarship in the colder weather states to train inside. For international athletes this isn’t such a big deal because if they get the chance to compete and study on scholarship they are going to take it. You see this a lot right now in division 1 college sports. Schools that are in worse areas are flooded with international students. More international students=more ahtletes. More athletes give more money and bigger competition.
Furthermore, the taxes thing is ridiculous. I have lived here 5 years and in that time I have paid just as many taxes as the next athlete. Not only that but no matter which school I go to I will always have to pay out of state tuition. It is unlikely that male athletes especially will be on full scholarship.
No offense but the taxes you paid for the 5 years in the US pale by comparison to the taxes paid (not by the athlete but by the athlete’s parents) by a lifetime resident. Assuming that any D1 colleges which are private get no state funding, then I don’t have a problem with them giving scholarships to whomever they want. But when the taxes I pay to the state and feds pay for a non citizen to come over and play a sport just so that school can be more competitive while the college costs keep climbing for my kids; that is a bit harder to accept.
You came over to play tennis on athletic scholarship but are saying that you are paying out of state tuition; what kind of scholarship did you receive that made it financially wise to come to the US to play tennis? And… would you have come to play without that “scholarship”?
I understand that strong competition makes the whole field stronger but I’m really not interested in paying for someone to come to the US to compete while my costs keep rising.
Can you support your statement that more athletes give more money? That topic has been discussed many times here and on other forums, most sports are money drains at the college level, especially those that cannot charge an admission fee for spectators. There will need to be some very creative people involved to ever make a profit for a school off from triathlon.
Couldn’t agree more: the presence of int’l athletes can only help US athletes get better.
I have 2 boys who just finished running D1 track and they could care less where the competition was from. I was the one who was finding out and telling them "u just beat/or got beat by the Aus Natl champ.
Great. And they are welcome. No one is debating this. Let them compete and come to the U.S so your boys can mix it up with them. Just not on scholarship.
I’ll look at it from a number of perspectives:
University – they want to win and are also concerned about cost. Recruiting internationally is expensive so naturally you will start local and more further afield if you can’t find what you need.
Alumnus – as an alumnus of Northwestern University I don’t care where they are from. Once they are here they represent my school. I want them to win while in school and I want them to win in the Olympics and professionally. We have had women’s lacrosse players from Australia, golfers from England, swimmers from Slovakia, football players from Canada, and basketball players from all over Europe. Some of the foreigners have hit the pinnacle of their sport which reflects well on Northwestern.
United States – as a citizen bringing bright young superior athletes to the United States is a total win. The US is a place which once you are here you tend not to want to leave. Very, very, very few people leave the US voluntarily. The argument is the same for more H1B visas and automatic green cards to every foreigner who gets a technical degree at an American college.
Triathlon will likely never make it past a club sport at Northwestern, however bringing in the best wherever they come from is never a problem.
I agree that sports are a huge money hole for colleges. That wasn’t my point, and I probably didn’t say it well. In the development of triathlon within the United States having international athletes is going to bring more money and it is going to get more exposure.
If you are worried about having to pay more for your kids you could always put the time and effort in that international athletes on scholarships put in to get there, then you wouldn’t have any problems, right?
I don’t think international athletes are where the exposure is. Winning is the exposure, and I don’t think there is really an indicator that either athlete is the correct way.
This isn’t xc skiing where apparently Americans can’t stack up. Our juniors are on level with international juniors at this point in ITU. Eta: so the guy who said Americans will play 2nd fiddle, no international athletes will in ITU junior triathlon for the foreseeable future with regards to NCAA scholarships at American universities.
The issue I think an international triathlete will have is availability in terms of recruitment. An US athlete has likely 3-5 chances to meet the NCAA coaches each year just at races alone. For an international athlete, 1 time a year? So that will be an issue int athletes have to overcome.
What’s interesting is the top reigning jr world champ has decided to go into a run program for college over any of the Tri programs we have now (the very few that are offering money at this time).
A better comparison though should be comparing running, because from what I can gather american junior skiers don’t stack up. And that’s not a fair comparison to how ITU juniors are in the sport. So you should be comparing how often Africans are getting run scholarships not xc skiing. Xc skiing is definitely international skewed but that’s not a very accurate portrayal in triathlon for juniors/college aged kids.
You guys are crazy. Most athletic departments are losing money. No way they add scholarships and cost to an athletic department that is already struggling with big deficits. Just look at Univ of Colorado. They are in a big time conference and they don’t have varsity men’s baseball, tennis, swimming, soccer, etc.
A better comparison though should be comparing running, because from what I can gather american junior skiers don’t stack up. And that’s not a fair comparison to how ITU juniors are in the sport. So you should be comparing how often Africans are getting run scholarships not xc skiing. Xc skiing is definitely international skewed but that’s not a very accurate portrayal in triathlon for juniors/college aged kids.
My main point was that even if triathlon is in the NCAA it is not necessary a gain in performance for US triathlon. The rosters can be filled up with a mix of nationalities, and one other thing. A NCAA schedule can crash with the international schedule and prevent participation in important races like the French Grand Prix. NCAA is not a solution by itself.