Is there any kind of chart comparing the aerodynamic differences between the two?
Both Zipp and hed put aero drag data on their sites
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Here’s what HED has: http://www.hedcycling.com/aerodynamics.asp
Here’s what Zipp says: http://www.zipp.com/_media/images/dynamicproducts/404_drag_chart.gif
And here’s a somewhat recent Tour magazine comparison: http://www.tour-magazin.de/services/qtr/epaper_4_2011/page104.html#/104
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Here’s what HED has: http://www.hedcycling.com/aerodynamics.asp
Here’s what Zipp says: http://www.zipp.com/...s/404_drag_chart.gif
And here’s a somewhat recent Tour magazine comparison: http://www.tour-magazin.de/...11/page104.html#/104
- I own H3s
- the tour magazine is a weighed composite? Yuck. Interesting that the FFWDs (aka zipp? is that right?) get worst relative to the H3s the faster you go. Maybe that’s why Those top TT guys are rolling the H3
- real world in races with strong winds (IM-wisc, IM-cozumel, and I assume Hawaii) the H3 eats other deep dishes for lunch.
- I’ll believe the HED data over the Zipp, since they show the 808 almost even and beating on occaision, although I have a hard time believing the Stinger 9 numbers.
SO it comes down to how often you see 15-20mph crosswinds. In the midwest? Basically every day. The H3 seems to provide excellent protection against stall in all conditions, with the only thing being better is a disc (if you can control it in 20mph winds).
In my opinion, the H3 is the ideal wheel for the Ironman. It can handle wind conditions in situations where you are going slow (climbing, late miles of the bike leg, or bike leg period). If there is a 15mph wind and you are going 20mph average, you are seeing tons of >20degree yaws. Maybe the curve behaves like the Stinger and eventually dramatically stalls, but that hasn’t been my real world experience.
The H3 also provides other advantages: no valve extenders since there is a “well” for the stem (although that still usually needs a hashpipe). So it can be reinflated via CO2 canisters pretty easily and tire-replaced easily (I do clinchers). It is SUPER strong, so its good for heavy riders and absorbing midwestern potholes. And they are the coolest/most distinctive looking wheels on the market.
Downside: they used to be pretty reasonable, but they seem to have gotten really expensive.
Just as a heads up–the tour test is for the Hed3D (not the normal H3).
Generally commenting, I don’t see why one would choose the H3D over the H3, given Hed’s own data. Although we have NO IDEA what conditions each was tested at.
*Disclosure, I own clincher H3’s and they treat me well (esp on AW19’s). I also got them for a song and haven’t compared to other wheels, so I’m not sure if I’m missing out on anything.
Thanks–I’m aware that’s it the H3D, but you can get an idea of where an H3 would fit in with all those other wheels by comparing Hed’s data on the H3 and H3D.
I think that Tour magazine test is more relevant today than something like this that has the H3 listed in it: http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html. I don’t know of any other recent tests with the H3 vs something like the 808FC. If you do, I’d love to check them out.
I looked into this as much as i could. I bought hed 3 front and hed 3deep rear.
Agreed on all accounts. I don’t have any other sources at the moment. Surprised the H3 did so well on a wide tire though in the Roues test.
No info on the hed 3 front and the hed 3 deep rear. It seemed to me to be the best of both .
Here’s what HED has: http://www.hedcycling.com/aerodynamics.asp
Here’s what Zipp says: http://www.zipp.com/...s/404_drag_chart.gif
And here’s a somewhat recent Tour magazine comparison: http://www.tour-magazin.de/...11/page104.html#/104
- I own H3s
- the tour magazine is a weighed composite? Yuck. Interesting that the FFWDs (aka zipp? is that right?) get worst relative to the H3s the faster you go. Maybe that’s why Those top TT guys are rolling the H3
- real world in races with strong winds (IM-wisc, IM-cozumel, and I assume Hawaii) the H3 eats other deep dishes for lunch.
- I’ll believe the HED data over the Zipp, since they show the 808 almost even and beating on occaision, although I have a hard time believing the Stinger 9 numbers.
SO it comes down to how often you see 15-20mph crosswinds. In the midwest? Basically every day. The H3 seems to provide excellent protection against stall in all conditions, with the only thing being better is a disc (if you can control it in 20mph winds).
In my opinion, the H3 is the ideal wheel for the Ironman. It can handle wind conditions in situations where you are going slow (climbing, late miles of the bike leg, or bike leg period). If there is a 15mph wind and you are going 20mph average, you are seeing tons of >20degree yaws. Maybe the curve behaves like the Stinger and eventually dramatically stalls, but that hasn’t been my real world experience.
The H3 also provides other advantages: no valve extenders since there is a “well” for the stem (although that still usually needs a hashpipe). So it can be reinflated via CO2 canisters pretty easily and tire-replaced easily (I do clinchers). It is SUPER strong, so its good for heavy riders and absorbing midwestern potholes. And they are the coolest/most distinctive looking wheels on the market.
Downside: they used to be pretty reasonable, but they seem to have gotten really expensive.
Whoops, I was thinking of Flashpoint == Zipp. FFWD is something else…
Is there any kind of chart comparing the aerodynamic differences between the two?
Anyone have any inside knowledge as to why H3s are being used in top-tier TTs so much now? Did the british cycling project do some wind tunnel testing that went in the H3s favor?
In the oly tt, Wiggins Froome and Taylor Phinney were all on them.
And HED isn’t known for paying pros to ride their stuff. THat German, uh Tony Martin, that beat Cancellara was on unbadged HEDs IIRC.
I have the Nimble Crosswinds, and I have also owned the HED 3C’s. I am a big fan of trispoke wheels. That’s the most technical info I can contribute.
Following pro’s equipment choices lock-step isn’t always the most intelligent thing to do. That said, they’ve consistently tested well, and aren’t subject to the “new/cool” thing bias.
Two factors probably influence the choice of people like Wiggins.
- The top ProTour guys are averaging 31+ mph. At that speed, they don’t encounter effective wind angles greater than ±7 degrees very often. If you look at the HED data, the H3, with it’s narrow profile, has much lower drag figures in the 0-5 degree range. Once you get past that point the more modern profile create additional lift and much lower drag out to 20 degrees. Wiggo doesn’t care because he is too fast to make a wide wheel work to his advantage.
- The H3 rotates forward in a crosswind, which actually propels the bike forward. Go to biketechreiew for the video from the LSWT. It probably isn’t more than a watt or two, but most wind tunnels can’t factor this into their drag calculations
I have a set of H3s for TTs, but I prefer the new wide rims for day-to-day riding and racing when the last watt isn’t so important.
One niggle, H3s dont create lift. They are symetric airfoils. asymetric airfoils can create lift but only if they are horizontal
One niggle, H3s dont create lift. They are symetric airfoils. asymetric airfoils can create lift but only if they are horizontal
Excuse me? Are you implying that symmetric foils can’t create lift? You’d better hurry and tell all those sailboat keel designers 
Does the keel create lift of do the sails?
Does the keel create lift of do the sails?
Yes. Both, just in different media and with different angles of attack.
Boatss aren’t anything i’ve ever dealt with. Where does a symetric airfoil derive its lift from. If its from the Bernoulli effect how is the low pressure side generated?
Boatss aren’t anything i’ve ever dealt with. Where does a symetric airfoil derive its lift from. If its from the Bernoulli effect how is the low pressure side generated?
Through angle of attack. A symmetric foil at zero angle of attack has zero lift. At non-zero angle of attack, lift begins being generated.
edit: replaced “yaw” with “angle of attack” in the last 2 sentences.