Treadmill- does it make you a slower runner?

Bit of a 2 part question this one…

After a soleus strain early in the tri season, all of my returning runs, and consequently the season due to injury management, were confined to the treadmill. Zone 2 pace, matching outdoor easy pace. I got my volume back and added tempo running but lost a good step in speed in races towards the later end of the season. Is there such a thing as too much treadmill and no outdoor can make you slower ? I know other factors can go into this but I have been fully rehabbed for a while and despite volume back to where it was for months, I am lacking the zip in races.

Secondly, off-season here soon which means road race season and bike heavy. I enjoy those as much as tris much of the time. Is it possible to barryp style easy runs on the off-season while increasing bike training or would fatigue usually not allow both ? I think I could do it however for impact and injury management I would again look at the treadmill however that ties in the question one. Too much dreadmill makes a slower runner ? A few outdoor runs a week help at all?

You don’t say what type of races, or distance.

I run on the TM a lot…just for convenience. But, it’s rare that I go more than a week without doing something outdoors. That only happens if the weather is just shit and out of sync with my ability to get outside. So, I can’t really say directly.

You only mention easy runs and some tempo. Neither of those will give you “zip”. You would need some form of speed work. Hills, strides, 400/800 at threshold pace and above.

To say much more, you’d need to describe what type of races and what “zip” you find to be missing.

My apologies Ofcourse, sprint distance. I did add some faster stuff but again also on treadmill and found it hard to add it with tempo on another day. 2x week speed work was often cooking me a bit with other tri training

I do believe doing all-treadmill for prolonged time can lead to slower results, mainly due to less training of the road impact. I’ve had this experience myself.

The reasons I think why I got slower when doing ALL treadmill for months:

  • Reduced impact training from the soft treadmill vs the road. When you’re racing fast outdoors, you gotta have as much road impact readiness as possible, particular at racing speeds. TMs are almost invariably softer than road on impact, so even if you’re doing fast work on the TM, it’s not quite the same. I do find though that you don’t need a ton of outdoor miles to get the needed road impact adaptation, and the reduced TM impact can actually be helpful if used correctly to reduce strain and stress.

  • Lack of true downhill training where impact really counts. Even treadmills that go downhill don’t go downhill enough to get your legs fully ready for all the downhills you’ll hit on the road.

I’ve found that if I’m fully road impact trained, since the TM is softer, I can run faster than I normally would had I just been training on the exact same TM.

I also found for myself that just running faster or increasing the incline on the TM doesn’t solve all the road impact issues - I still have to run on the road a bunch to acclimate, even if I’ve been killing myself on the TM. Luckily, it doesn’t seem to take much road impact training for shorter distance races (I haven’t tried it for the marathon, though.)

Note however that I’ve found that for me, where at my age I get arthritis-related bone pain when I run too many miles, the TM can be super helpful and I mix it in whenever possible to reduce joint impact so I dont get deep bone bruising that can take months to heal. I’ll go to mostly if not all road near race day, but I’ll go back to significant TM miles afterwards so I can let any bone soreness heal up.

This is excellent thanks for taking the time to write this. Sounds about where I’m at. Coming back from injury using treadmill only has left me a bit weaker as a runner. I’ll add a couple of outdoor runs a week in the off-season to maintain that strength

I start this by saying I never considered myself a good runner. I was like a 20:xx 5K and 1:36:xx half guy.

The winters I spent running 40 to 55 miles a week on a treadmill and indoor track were followed by the best running seasons of my life. If you run slow on the treadmill you will likely run slow anywhere else. I personally would do one of the canned marathon plans in the back of the book “Daniels Running Formula”

Increasing bike training in the winter (off-season) has never made me a better triathlete, it made me a better biker but that wasn’t low hanging fruit for me.

Perhaps you are correct. I do need cake first I have to get to 45 miles roughly and then work some speed into it before tri season begins. But glad to see treadmill does help in that instance

I do believe doing all-treadmill for prolonged time can lead to slower results, mainly due to less training of the road impact.

I also think that 100% treadmill running misses out on developing the small and lateral muscles that accompany a consistent change in terrain and turns. It’s great for improving 90+% of the things that need improving but skips on that last little bit, as compared to outdoor running.

I don’t think there’s a prerequisite before speed. At least not at 40+ miles

You can do 1 set of threshold intervals a week while running 15-20 miles per week. I think that very helpful to running but you should get 6 weeks of easy running in at your chosen load before you start adding speedwork.

I do believe doing all-treadmill for prolonged time can lead to slower results, mainly due to less training of the road impact.

I also think that 100% treadmill running misses out on developing the small and lateral muscles that accompany a consistent change in terrain and turns. It’s great for improving 90+% of the things that need improving but skips on that last little bit, as compared to outdoor running.

I agree too. During the winter I get some trail snow runs done occasionally but the majority of my time on the treadmill is limited from December through March only. Before and after that I’m on the road or trail so I haven’t had issues with that.

I do believe doing all-treadmill for prolonged time can lead to slower results, mainly due to less training of the road impact.

I also think that 100% treadmill running misses out on developing the small and lateral muscles that accompany a consistent change in terrain and turns. It’s great for improving 90+% of the things that need improving but skips on that last little bit, as compared to outdoor running.

I agree too. During the winter I get some trail snow runs done occasionally but the majority of my time on the treadmill is limited from December through March only. Before and after that I’m on the road or trail so I haven’t had issues with that.

You wrote previously you were able to get to an indoor track as well. Even though tracks are softer than hard road, they’re still firmer than most TMs, and I’ve been successful in previous years when I lived in harsh winter climates where I did TM+indoor track and was totally prepared for road season to run better than ever.

I do believe doing all-treadmill for prolonged time can lead to slower results, mainly due to less training of the road impact. I’ve had this experience myself.

The reasons I think why I got slower when doing ALL treadmill for months:

  • Reduced impact training from the soft treadmill vs the road. When you’re racing fast outdoors, you gotta have as much road impact readiness as possible, particular at racing speeds. TMs are almost invariably softer than road on impact, so even if you’re doing fast work on the TM, it’s not quite the same. I do find though that you don’t need a ton of outdoor miles to get the needed road impact adaptation, and the reduced TM impact can actually be helpful if used correctly to reduce strain and stress.

  • Lack of true downhill training where impact really counts. Even treadmills that go downhill don’t go downhill enough to get your legs fully ready for all the downhills you’ll hit on the road.

I’ve found that if I’m fully road impact trained, since the TM is softer, I can run faster than I normally would had I just been training on the exact same TM.

I also found for myself that just running faster or increasing the incline on the TM doesn’t solve all the road impact issues - I still have to run on the road a bunch to acclimate, even if I’ve been killing myself on the TM. Luckily, it doesn’t seem to take much road impact training for shorter distance races (I haven’t tried it for the marathon, though.)

Note however that I’ve found that for me, where at my age I get arthritis-related bone pain when I run too many miles, the TM can be super helpful and I mix it in whenever possible to reduce joint impact so I dont get deep bone bruising that can take months to heal. I’ll go to mostly if not all road near race day, but I’ll go back to significant TM miles afterwards so I can let any bone soreness heal up.

I think that in the real world the faster we go there is an acceleration and deceleration phase in each stride, whereas the treadmill is going at a fixed speed relative to your body. It is why true “sprinting” on a treadmill is weird, because running fast is effectively connected successive bounds.

Also the treadmill does not have variation in terrain, so your head and eye positions don’t change (head position changes have massive impact on real running before your head motion changes your balance), plus you don’t really have downhill running (even if you have a treadmill that goes downhill, you won’t get 5-10 percent downhills like you may get in real life.

I do believe doing all-treadmill for prolonged time can lead to slower results, mainly due to less training of the road impact. I’ve had this experience myself.

The reasons I think why I got slower when doing ALL treadmill for months:

  • Reduced impact training from the soft treadmill vs the road. When you’re racing fast outdoors, you gotta have as much road impact readiness as possible, particular at racing speeds. TMs are almost invariably softer than road on impact, so even if you’re doing fast work on the TM, it’s not quite the same. I do find though that you don’t need a ton of outdoor miles to get the needed road impact adaptation, and the reduced TM impact can actually be helpful if used correctly to reduce strain and stress.

  • Lack of true downhill training where impact really counts. Even treadmills that go downhill don’t go downhill enough to get your legs fully ready for all the downhills you’ll hit on the road.

I’ve found that if I’m fully road impact trained, since the TM is softer, I can run faster than I normally would had I just been training on the exact same TM.

I also found for myself that just running faster or increasing the incline on the TM doesn’t solve all the road impact issues - I still have to run on the road a bunch to acclimate, even if I’ve been killing myself on the TM. Luckily, it doesn’t seem to take much road impact training for shorter distance races (I haven’t tried it for the marathon, though.)

Note however that I’ve found that for me, where at my age I get arthritis-related bone pain when I run too many miles, the TM can be super helpful and I mix it in whenever possible to reduce joint impact so I dont get deep bone bruising that can take months to heal. I’ll go to mostly if not all road near race day, but I’ll go back to significant TM miles afterwards so I can let any bone soreness heal up.

I think that in the real world the faster we go there is an acceleration and deceleration phase in each stride, whereas the treadmill is going at a fixed speed relative to your body. It is why true “sprinting” on a treadmill is weird, because running fast is effectively connected successive bounds.

Also the treadmill does not have variation in terrain, so your head and eye positions don’t change (head position changes have massive impact on real running before your head motion changes your balance), plus you don’t really have downhill running (even if you have a treadmill that goes downhill, you won’t get 5-10 percent downhills like you may get in real life.

I hear you, but honestly that’s not what my body seems to lack when going from months of TM to road. It’s not like my legs aren’t accelerating fast enough or having problems varying pace. If anything, they’re doing an extremely good job of that.

The clear missing factor I’ve noticed is that tendon-strength needed. After that first real-pace run on the roads from months of TM, my leg tendons are sore - it’s not the muscles, it’s the fibrous tendons. If I subsequently remove the impact by water running or even elliptical, I can go super hard on those same legs, but it’s hard to even run slowly due that tendon pain on those legs. At least for me, that’s the only real limiter I’ve noticed when going back to road.

I’ve had no weird proprioception or other issues at all. Might be different for other folks, but I’ve been surprised how I had pretty much zero other issues on the transition - only the (big) one of road impact on tendons.

I actually really like doing speedwork on a TM since it feels less injurious to my arthritic ankles, but again, you can have too much of a good thing, and as race day approaches I move it all to the road.

I do believe doing all-treadmill for prolonged time can lead to slower results, mainly due to less training of the road impact.

I also think that 100% treadmill running misses out on developing the small and lateral muscles that accompany a consistent change in terrain and turns. It’s great for improving 90+% of the things that need improving but skips on that last little bit, as compared to outdoor running.

I agree too. During the winter I get some trail snow runs done occasionally but the majority of my time on the treadmill is limited from December through March only. Before and after that I’m on the road or trail so I haven’t had issues with that.

You wrote previously you were able to get to an indoor track as well. Even though tracks are softer than hard road, they’re still firmer than most TMs, and I’ve been successful in previous years when I lived in harsh winter climates where I did TM+indoor track and was totally prepared for road season to run better than ever.

Maybe it makes more of a difference than I thought it would. Track is completely flat but was still 10 laps to a mile so I was turning often. We’d switch directions daily.

Bit of a 2 part question this one…

After a soleus strain early in the tri season, all of my returning runs, and consequently the season due to injury management, were confined to the treadmill. Zone 2 pace, matching outdoor easy pace. I got my volume back and added tempo running but lost a good step in speed in races towards the later end of the season. Is there such a thing as too much treadmill and no outdoor can make you slower ? I know other factors can go into this but I have been fully rehabbed for a while and despite volume back to where it was for months, I am lacking the zip in races.

Secondly, off-season here soon which means road race season and bike heavy. I enjoy those as much as tris much of the time. Is it possible to barryp style easy runs on the off-season while increasing bike training or would fatigue usually not allow both ? I think I could do it however for impact and injury management I would again look at the treadmill however that ties in the question one. Too much dreadmill makes a slower runner ? A few outdoor runs a week help at all?

Interestingly, Brett Sutton who is known to have coached some of the best athletes in the world, is known to use the treadmill lot (e.g. see attached article: https://www.trisutto.com/post/the-treadmill-benefits-of-treadmill-training). It was interesting to hear Emma Snowsill on the How They Train podcast share how she used the treadmill a lot to work on her run and develop a faster cadence. With that being said, I also feel that even one short run outside a week to complement the TM goes a long way. After extended TM only periods, that first run outside always kills me and leaves me sore.

As a road racer first, I really struggled to include running in my weeks without having to compromise on my bike. It has gotten better as my legs have “callused” but the best approach (for me) when I want to focus on the bike without totally losing the run is to limit my run to 20-30min post bike 3-4x a week. Really low mileage but easy to rebuild from. Keeping them post ride really helps skipping warmups and maximizing the recovery period in bw. That’s just enough (for me) to get the stimulus without any damage.