Training in the Heat (4)

Velocibuddha · June 22, 2021, 9:09pm

I don’t want to be “the expert”.
I don’t want to curate this thread either.
But I think some people want a new thread on this topic.

I live and train (mostly outdoors) in Tucson. Here are some comments:

A short, easy workout, in very high temperatures, followed by cool water and shade- is better than most sex.
I suppose a little heat (and/or humidity) is just another obstacle- like hills or wind.
Running- in temperatures of over 105 and dry (or over 95 and humid) is unsustainable in the long (or hard) run.
Long runs require tooooo much water, toooo many salt pills. And you wind up running toooooo slow. And getting tooo tired.
And hard efforts, are a sure fire way to make yourself feel really sick. And you can’t go fast anyway!!

Cycling - temperatures of over 110 (or 100 with humud) is also unsustainable.

Swimming- temperatures over 87 are unsustainable.

Short easy workouts add up!
Personally, I hate swimming in hot water the most!!!
The un-cooled swimming pools in Tucson are currently 90+ degrees.
Weirdly, the water feels cool to the skin.
But any effort at all, immediately makes you feel sick. And you get exhausted really fast.
Public service warning…
DEHYDRATION DANGER- I once nearly killed myself. Here is how:
I was on a 100+ mile bike ride.
It was kinda hot.
But not hot to the skin (mid 90s).
It was windy.
It was high elevation.
I was loosing water really fast.
But still felt cool.
I wasn’t thirsty.
I was cycling for hours.
At some point, I started to feel bad.
I didn’t analyze why. I just kept going.
After about an hour, I felt really, really bad. (And went from riding 20+ mph to 7 mph).
My heart was beating 170 bpm (without cycling at all) and I was dizzy.
Basically- my blood had turned to sludge.
I was having something very similar to a heart attach.
And would have probably died in another 30 minutes.
I bummed some water from a guy who lived in a sketchy looking trailer.
He may have saved my life!!
I drank the water and lay in the shade and eventually rode into town (without having to call an ambulance).
I am pretty sure I had some of the stress hormones related to a heart attack.
And I felt wonky for a month afterwards.
Being adapted to dry heat is NOT the same as being adapted to humid heat.
Dry heat-
Lot’s of sweat and a large surface area of skin- cool a person quite effectively.
Dry heat adaptation is about cooling, sweating and processing water.
Humid heat-
Sweat and surface area don’t help that much. The key here is to produce as little heat as possible.
They say “training in heat is like training at elevation.” This might be true in that less oxygen is available for exercise.
In hot conditions (especially very hot and dry), lots of blood is diverted to the skin for cooling purposes. And less blood is available for exercise. The hotter, and the harder the training - the more cooling necessary!! The less blood!!

BUT…
THIS IS KINDA STUPID!!!
The point of elevation is to LIVE at altitude, NOT to train slowly, all the time.
I believe that many of the professional running groups in Flagstaff drive down hill for their hard workouts.

Theory- maybe it is wise to treat heat like altitude. Spend as much time in it as possible. But don’t skip fast, or long workouts in better conditions.

Lots of heat causes salt imbalances.
Salt imbalances can cause cramping and swelling/water retention.
Swelling, in turn can aggrevate injuries.
Magnessium, potassium, zinc, iodine (more?) salts, in addition to regular salt- are helpful.
Salt imbalances can also cause electrical instability in the heart.
Therefore, exercise in the heat might cause, or aggrevate, heart irregularities!!!
Personally, this doesn’t concern me too much.
But it is just something to be aware of.
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TheYellowJester · June 22, 2021, 9:21pm

I’m just curious what other people in AZ are doing. I’m just getting back into riding and signed up for a race recently, but even in my absence, I continued running. That first two weeks of 100 is tough, followed by the burst of 110+ we usually get. It isn’t so much the actual running or biking for me, since I don’t bike more than 35 these days or run more than 9 miles. But its the recovery. Man, I go run 6 miles in 105 degree heat during the day, the next couple days of whatever suck. The physical impact is one thing, but the mental tiredness add insult to injury.

If only there was some button that I could push at 5:30 to get up. I mean, I used to get up early when I used to race. But my kids were really young so woke me up anyways. It became habit. Them being older, not needing to getup to ride or anything, and now covid screwing with my week day schedule (I sleep until 7:30 some morning), I just can’t do it. Acclimated enough where I can do workouts that are less than an hour at lunch time. They suck, but I don’t feel weak after. If I need to go long, maybe I get out at 8 and work later to make up for it. Guess I see some night time training soon.

Velocibuddha · June 22, 2021, 9:47pm

Last week was exceptionally brutal.

My weekly tempo run was on the treadmill (at the rock climbing gym).

The long run- was 3 miles running to the gym (102F), 16 miles on the treadmill, 3 miles running home (112 F)

Long ride - 1 hour heat (100 F), 3 hours at elevation (with hard efforts), 1 hour heat (110 F).

The rest- 3 additional runs, 6 rides (commutes) and 3 swims- done slowly in the heat.
The swims made me feel sick.

When I had kids at home…
My cycling was done at odd times on the trainer.
Running and swimming were done during kids activities.
I did manage 18 hr/wk sometimes.
But I was a single dad.
Managing my kids schedules, and my own- is probably easier than trying to coordinate with a spouse or partner.

Most of my buddies that train a lot, get up early and maxize times when kids are doing activities.

Titanflexr · June 22, 2021, 9:47pm

I’ve run in Vegas in 108 and Elat in 120. Some thoughts:

+1 on short workouts. In those conditions you are basically on borrowed time until your core gets too high.

Unlike races, training runs don’t have aid stations to hydrate/splash yourself every mile.

In high heat I train by heart rate. The pace feels super-slow, but that’s all my body can manage under those conditions.

Err on the side of caution. Trying to push that last mile when you know you’re overheating can trash you and wreck your workouts for the next few days, and that’s assuming something that requires medical attention doesn’t happen.

Just saw this device for monitoring core body temp. Pricey ($280), but might be worth it if you train in high heat stress areas a lot. Some TdF teams seem to be experimenting with it. With time this might get built into existing watches; much the way optical HR started out as a separate device.

DrTriKat · June 22, 2021, 10:00pm

They can call it whatever, but if you are measuring something from the skin, through the skin and subcutaneous tissues (and on a limb!)1, it doesn’t matter what kind of tech manipulation you are doing with the sensors/data, it is NOT core body temperature.

You can only measure core body temperature INSIDE the body (bladder, gut).

I second your advice on monitoring HEART RATE when doing anything outdoors in the heat.

If your heart rate starts going up without increased effort/pace/power, then it’s time to call it quits, go inside the AC and cool off and hydrate.

Skoalz · June 22, 2021, 10:02pm

I live and train (mostly outdoors) in Tucson. Here are some comments:

A short, easy workout, in very high temperatures, followed by cool water and shade- is better than most sex.

I don’t think you are doing sex correctly. ðŸ˜

Tom_hampton · June 22, 2021, 10:10pm

I live and train in Dallas, TX. Hot and Humid…but, not as stupid as Houston. No one should live in Houston, seriously.

I agree with most of what you wrote. Well, #1 is wrong.

#3 is mostly true. But, I don’t agree that slow is pointless. It is about acclimation, and hydration. And there is certainly a limit. I tend to do as much as I can outside, but I’m not afraid to walk or rest…and I’m not above doing 1/2 - 2/3rd outside and finishing on the TM. I routinely do my Sat long runs starting around 10am. Maybe I do 80-90 mins outside and the balance of the 2hrs on the TM. I will frequently set a cooler at the end of my driveway and do 3-5 mile out-n-back loops past the cooler for hydration.

#4 agreed…to a point. But, 12x 4mile runs is not the same week as one with a good continuous 15ish mile long run and a couple of 10 milers. mixed with the shorter stuff. But, if 12x4 is what you can do, that’s better than 3x 10milers for sure. Obviously there’s a continuum between lots of tiny runs and a few long ones.

#6, yes. Dying from heat stroke is stupid. Easy to do…but, stupid.

#7 yeah. My daughter lives in colorado. We visit here in August every year. I go running in “95F” dry-heat while we are there. And, even at 5000ft altitude, and I’m typically 1+ mpm faster with a lower HR. Conversely, 75F / 90% humidity can be oppressive. Late Spring is my least favorite time of the year, because its just a constant adjustment to an ever increasing heat index.

Temperature + dew-point works better for me as an indicator of heat load than “feels like” does. Anything over 150 is hot. 160 is brutal.

#8. Kind of agree. except, training in the heat DOES force adaptation, that is harder to get by other means. Whereas training at altitude doesn’t.

Theory- maybe it is wise to treat heat like altitude. Spend as much time in it as possible. But don’t skip fast, or long workouts in better conditions.

Dev and I had this conversation three years ago. That’s exactly what I do, once I’m heat adapted. I do my tempo/threshold workouts on the TM, and easy runs in the heat. Heat adaptation results in better pace at cool temps. Use those paces in cool temps to drive better metabolic adaptations.

#10. Yes. Consume foods with a balance of electrolytes.

Velocibuddha · June 22, 2021, 10:10pm

I wonder if that monitor is helpful?

It seems that high core temperature is not a problem, until it’s a big problem.

But maybe overheating is more of a progressive problem than it seems?

TheYellowJester · June 22, 2021, 10:22pm

I’ve run in Vegas in 108 and Elat in 120. Some thoughts:

+1 on short workouts. In those conditions you are basically on borrowed time until your core gets too high.

Unlike races, training runs don’t have aid stations to hydrate/splash yourself every mile.

In high heat I train by heart rate. The pace feels super-slow, but that’s all my body can manage under those conditions.

Err on the side of caution. Trying to push that last mile when you know you’re overheating can trash you and wreck your workouts for the next few days, and that’s assuming something that requires medical attention doesn’t happen.

Just saw this device for monitoring core body temp. Pricey ($280), but might be worth it if you train in high heat stress areas a lot. Some TdF teams seem to be experimenting with it. With time this might get built into existing watches; much the way optical HR started out as a separate device.

I was wondering about this. I train by pace since heart rate stability fluctuates here in the desert after reading I should do that here on ST years ago. I see my heart rate spike in the later parts of a run when it initially gets hot, but try to maintain my Z2 pace or very close to it in Z1 unless my heart rate gets in the 160s which is well above Z4 for me. I did a 3 miler Sunday at 112 degrees and my z2 pace and hr stayed in sync. Even did a zone 4 sprint in the last mile and they both went up and down proportionate. So that suggest a level of acclimation. But always wondered if I should use pace or HR in heat. Because come october, I’ll easily be able to maintain a zone 2 heart rate at a zone 4 pace for a 3 miler, and zone 1 heart rate at zone 2 pace for 6-9 miles. I don’t run farther than that anymore. We’ll see if I get the race bug back after this one.

TheYellowJester · June 22, 2021, 10:24pm

I got a better idea, wife wants a cabin in flag or mund’s park. Problem solved, and get some altitude training in while I’m at it.

Titanflexr · June 22, 2021, 10:34pm

They can call it whatever, but if you are measuring something from the skin, through the skin and subcutaneous tissues (and on a limb!)1, it doesn’t matter what kind of tech manipulation you are doing with the sensors/data, it is NOT core body temperature.

You can only measure core body temperature INSIDE the body (bladder, gut).

I second your advice on monitoring HEART RATE when doing anything outdoors in the heat.

If your heart rate starts going up without increased effort/pace/power, then it’s time to call it quits, go inside the AC and cool off and hydrate.

Agreed that they are not measuring core temp directly. The premise is that there is a reliable transfer function between what they can measure and CBT. I saw the DCR writeup on the device (still in its beta phase): https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2020/08/hands-on-cores-new-skin-body-temp-sensor-with-garmin-wahoo-integration.html . There are some graphs of the device vs. telemetric pill. However they are supplied by the company (so take the data with a grain of salt), and we don’t know the test conditions. Would dumping cold water on yourself at an aid station mess up the sensor? I’d love to see some testing of this in the wild. Gotta believe that some tri pros would be experimenting with it given the ease of use and upcoming Kona prep.

Velocibuddha · June 22, 2021, 10:39pm

I got a better idea, wife wants a cabin in flag or mund’s park. Problem solved, and get some altitude training in while I’m at it.

I fantasize about a cabin in Alpine, Portal, Silver City, Luna, NM.

But driving time, house maintenance, maybe mortgage payments- that might take more than its worth.

Munds park and flag are really close for you.

Titanflexr · June 22, 2021, 10:44pm

I’ve run in Vegas in 108 and Elat in 120. Some thoughts:

+1 on short workouts. In those conditions you are basically on borrowed time until your core gets too high.

Unlike races, training runs don’t have aid stations to hydrate/splash yourself every mile.

In high heat I train by heart rate. The pace feels super-slow, but that’s all my body can manage under those conditions.

Err on the side of caution. Trying to push that last mile when you know you’re overheating can trash you and wreck your workouts for the next few days, and that’s assuming something that requires medical attention doesn’t happen.

Just saw this device for monitoring core body temp. Pricey ($280), but might be worth it if you train in high heat stress areas a lot. Some TdF teams seem to be experimenting with it. With time this might get built into existing watches; much the way optical HR started out as a separate device.

I was wondering about this. I train by pace since heart rate stability fluctuates here in the desert after reading I should do that here on ST years ago. I see my heart rate spike in the later parts of a run when it initially gets hot, but try to maintain my Z2 pace or very close to it in Z1 unless my heart rate gets in the 160s which is well above Z4 for me. I did a 3 miler Sunday at 112 degrees and my z2 pace and hr stayed in sync. Even did a zone 4 sprint in the last mile and they both went up and down proportionate. So that suggest a level of acclimation. But always wondered if I should use pace or HR in heat. Because come october, I’ll easily be able to maintain a zone 2 heart rate at a zone 4 pace for a 3 miler, and zone 1 heart rate at zone 2 pace for 6-9 miles. I don’t run farther than that anymore. We’ll see if I get the race bug back after this one.

Most folks are going to experience cardiac drift during a run as their CBT goes up. I pretty much train by pace unless the heat gets extreme. It was 104 here last week and I know that an “easy” 10 at Z2 pace (based on my FTP/HR at 75 deg.) is not going to be easy enough under those conditions. If your HR during a Z2 effort is drifting up into Z4 you are no longer achieving the goal of a Z2 workout. Others can weigh in; if I drift into mid-Z3 on a Z2 day I’ll back off.

Tom_hampton · June 22, 2021, 11:00pm

Most folks are going to experience cardiac drift during a run as their CBT goes up. I pretty much train by pace unless the heat gets extreme. It was 104 here last week and I know that an “easy” 10 at Z2 pace (based on my FTP/HR at 75 deg.) is not going to be easy enough under those conditions. If your HR during a Z2 effort is drifting up into Z4 you are no longer achieving the goal of a Z2 workout. Others can weigh in; if I drift into mid-Z3 on a Z2 day I’ll back off.

During the summer, I run based off RPE with HR (drift) as a secondary. When air_temp+dew_point > 150 my HR is +8-10 at the start of a run. In dallas the dewpoint is ~73-75. That plus 85-90F air temp = ugly. We’ve been in the upper 90s lately (until a cold front came through last night).

I can get about 90 minutes in before my HR drift exceeds about another 10 bpm, assuming I can hydrate adequately. As long as my legs say its “easy”, I think its easy. I also let the next few days judge the success of that strategy. If I can’t recover, then I’ll back the pace and RPE down a smidge until I can get calibrated to the right sensations. I also look at the long term HR graph of previous workouts. Early in the season, I typically see a noticeable slope to HR over time (regardless of hydration). But, as I get more acclimated, that slope tends to plateau (again up to about 90 minutes, at which point it begins to climb without bound).

desert_dude · June 22, 2021, 11:20pm

I’m about over summer already. Last week was brutal.

I can do 1 workout outside per day. And most days 1 indoors workout. But they thing that’s killing me is the getting up between 4-4:30 every day.
I’m a 8.5-9.5 hr of night sleep individual to function. This week I feel like a walking zombie.

I should have gone back to NC for the summer. Even at 95F and 90% humidity, Raleigh is no where near as bad as Tucson. At least there you can go workout anytime of the day. The east coast summer sun is cuddly and warm, kinda like a hug from your significant other. The AZ sun seers your skin with a branding iron.

East coast summers are for pansies, AZ summers are for hardy individuals

daustin · June 22, 2021, 11:43pm

If Iâ€™m going need to be training in the heat for a long time I put ice water in my car and setup my routes with loops by my car and I can stop and cover myself in ice water and refill my bottles.

boobooaboo · June 22, 2021, 11:45pm

Made the mistake of doing a hard and hilly ride in heat index of 111 last week in Dallas. Recovery was brutal, but I feel like I’m used to it now.

CBJFan · June 23, 2021, 12:29am

I moved to Charleston SC a few months ago. The heat is bad enough but the humidity is oppressive. For anything over an hour I have no choice but to slow way down, walk as needed and cut runs short.

tlc13 · June 23, 2021, 2:15am

I got a better idea, wife wants a cabin in flag or mund’s park. Problem solved, and get some altitude training in while I’m at it.

Yep, I am.fortunate. Ride indoors in Phx at our primary home and enjoy rides and
Runs on weekends up in Flagstaff. Game changer when we got the Flagstaff place.

DrAlexHarrison · June 23, 2021, 4:09am

Theory- maybe it is wise to treat heat like altitude. Spend as much time in it as possible. But don’t skip fast, or long workouts in better conditions.

This is somewhat true.

What matters is training time in heat though, unlike altitude.

Ideal training scenario for heat acclimatization:
Spend most of the day in normal temperatures.Train daily for 30-120minutes in hot temps. Keep intensity low. Sweat lots. Indoor trainer ride in a hot RV with no fan is a great way to go. 10 days of this can make a remarkable difference in sweat concentration and thermoregulation. Do any quality / intense training in cooler temps to still get higher quality training in.
Unfortunately we can’t just heat our house to 95 degrees and get heat acclimatized. Otherwise in April and May 2021 I’d have been a heat acclimatized monster because we were in an RV in Tucson and our AC units both failed. It was 90-100 most days in the RV. I didn’t train much because I had a high workload that month. When I did train, I was most certainly NOT heat acclimatized. My wife however, was acclimatized very nicely because she spent 1-2 hours per day sweating on the trainer.