Training for longer runs?

finsfree · August 12, 2013, 9:47pm

Hi,

I’m wanting to get better at running longer distances like a 1/2 marathon and sometimes a local 10 miler will pop up. My last 1/2 marathon was a 1:34 (7:09 pace) about 4 months ago. I run around 40mi per week.

I’m in my early 30’s a weigh around 168lb at 6’1".

What should I change about this training schedule if any:

Sun. Group bike ride around 50mi
Mon. Recovery run 9-8:45min pace (8.2mi)
Tues. Bridge/Hill repeats (6mi worth, pushing it the middle 2 miles…)
Wed. Easy run 7:45 pace (8.2)
Thurs. Track 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, etc… (3mi worth)
Fri. Rest and recover
Sat. Negitive split day. starting off at 8min pace for 5mi, then 7:30min pace for 2.5mi, then 6:55-7min pace for the last 2.5mi, finally 3mi cool down (13mi) This will be new. I have never done a negitive split.

I have a 10 miler race in 2 months and I want to tap into the high 6’s as far as pace (6:55). This is my goal for now.

Thanks,

dfroelich · August 12, 2013, 10:01pm

I would move Th. to Tu. and alternate (hills one week, speed the next)
Then switch the Saturday run to Thursday, but shorten it to 8 miles.
Change Saturday to a 10-13 even paced long run.

Losing weight is always good for some speed as well.

Willrc91 · August 12, 2013, 11:00pm

Lose weight
I don’t like all that intensity in your long run, its a recipe for injury. Your long run should be between 90-120mins (yes time NOT distance) and should be at an easy aerobic pace. I am a sub 16 5k runner and do my long runs at 4.55/k pace, I ran with a 14.38 5k runner who does most of his runs even slower!
Hill repeats are good, they dont have to be that hard, can just be long efforts concentrating on good form. (that’s the key), I’d cycle these hill repeats with some tempo work on odd weeks, e.g. the negative split run, 5x8mins at HM pace with short reco, some fartlek work (google mona fartlek)
Track sessions is good, but 200m repeats are a waste of time, Speed is not your limiter its endurance. Intervals should be between 1-3k’s (and everything in between). 6x1ks on 4mins is my bread and butter set, you could push to 4.30mins. Also make sure you get at least 15-20mins of W/u, drills and strides before the track session.

Good luck.

Printer · August 12, 2013, 11:46pm

M: 6.5 miles easy
T: 9.5 mile workout. (something like 6 x 1 mile, 3 x 2 miles or 2 x 3 miles)
W: 6.5 miles easy
T: 9.5 mile workout. (something like 6-7 miles @ marathon pace)
F: 6.5 miles easy
S: 12-15 Long run @ :30 -1:00 slower than marathon pace.
S: Bike Ride

SurfL · August 13, 2013, 12:07am

Your Sat run is a bad idea imo…but different strokes for different folks.

might be running too fast on easy runs too. If you cant carry a casual conversation while running - too fast. If you can sing - too slow. Again…different stroked so ymmv

finsfree · August 13, 2013, 12:56am

Lose weight
I don’t like all that intensity in your long run, its a recipe for injury. Your long run should be between 90-120mins (yes time NOT distance) and should be at an easy aerobic pace. I am a sub 16 5k runner and do my long runs at 4.55/k pace, I ran with a 14.38 5k runner who does most of his runs even slower!
Hill repeats are good, they dont have to be that hard, can just be long efforts concentrating on good form. (that’s the key), I’d cycle these hill repeats with some tempo work on odd weeks, e.g. the negative split run, 5x8mins at HM pace with short reco, some fartlek work (google mona fartlek)
Track sessions is good, but 200m repeats are a waste of time, Speed is not your limiter its endurance. Intervals should be between 1-3k’s (and everything in between). 6x1ks on 4mins is my bread and butter set, you could push to 4.30mins. Also make sure you get at least 15-20mins of W/u, drills and strides before the track session.

Good luck.

Are you telling me your long runs are at a 4.55 pace?

Anyways it just seems like there’s alot of slow pace miles. Doesn’t that get boring? Sometime I just want to kill it!

How do you get fast running slow?

My goal is to go sub 7 for 10 miles.

Willrc91 · August 13, 2013, 1:09am

4.55 per k not mile.

No it doesn’t get boring, I just get into a rhythm, listen to my iPod or talk wi a friend.

A 10mole event is an aerobic event, it’s not about running fast per se but rather not slowing down as much over the ditpstance. Consistent aerobic mileage with some targeted intensity we your race nears if the best and safest way to improve. Even 800m runners ill run 100+k weeks, aerobic endurance is key!

finsfree · August 13, 2013, 2:10am

4.55 per k not mile.

No it doesn’t get boring, I just get into a rhythm, listen to my iPod or talk wi a friend.

A 10mole event is an aerobic event, it’s not about running fast per se but rather not slowing down as much over the ditpstance. Consistent aerobic mileage with some targeted intensity we your race nears if the best and safest way to improve. Even 800m runners ill run 100+k weeks, aerobic endurance is key!

4.55 per k…wow that is slow!

How can I target my goal race pace of 6:55 then? Wouldn’t I need to be training close to that pace to get my body use to it?

How many miles per week do you do? You’ve got to be over 50mi?

JoeO · August 13, 2013, 2:16am

How do you get fast running slow?

My goal is to go sub 7 for 10 miles.

You are not trying to get fast. You are trying to not slow down.

You are already well able to run 7:00/ mile pace. You are now trying to train yourself to be able to hold that pace for a longer time. That’s endurance. Not speed.

Willrc91 · August 13, 2013, 4:01am

Short answer no. Running close to goal pace so often is a recipe for burnout and injury. Moreover as the poster below has accurately pointed out its not like you can’t run 7minute miles, it’s not that fast, it’s about holding a semi-fast speed for a longer period.

In regards to mileage my records show I have averaged 60ks per week since April. This is not a guess (and always inflated like it is on st). The key is that I have not missed any running due to injury, since its my base season as I’m Aussie I’ve done not one fast run on training since march, with only two races being hard. The intensity is starting to come back soon in prep for my key races in the new year. On no speedwork I still Ran a sub 3min opening k and 18:20 for first 6ks of the city2surf on the weekend. Endurance trumps speed over any event above 800 meters.

SpaceKitty · August 13, 2013, 5:17am

How do you get fast running slow?

Please don’t swallow the kool-aid.

If you look at how elite runners train (or cyclists, cross-country skiers, or rowers, or… you get the gist), you’ll find that the vast majority of their volume is done at sub-maximal “easy” intensities. Aurthur Lydiard, who coached Peter Snell to a double gold in the 800m and 1500m at '64 Olympics, had his athletes running 100 miles per week during the base period, most of that at an “easy” pace. Muse on that: 100 miles per week, for an event that lasts less than 2 minutes. Why? Because even in the mid-distances, running is primarily aerobic. Running lots and running frequently builds the aerobic engine, improves running economy and your ability to conserve glycogen stores. As your volume increases, you’ll find that your “easy” pace gets faster and the length of time you can run for before getting fatigued (or slowing down) gets longer. This is what you need in the longer events.

That’s not to say you should exclude speed work entirely. During a build up to a half marathon, I personally incorporate two kinds of speed work: long intervals a goal pace (with short rest periods) and short intervals at faster than goal pace. I’m also a big believer in strides and hill sprints, even during base period. But, even as an event gets closer, the majority of my running is done at “easy” intensities (I’m a 35min 10k runner).

Here’s two articles from Body Recomposition (a great resource, BTW), from the same series on endurance training. The first explains the principles of doing lots of volume at low intensity:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-part-2-miles-build-champions.html

the second directly answers “how does going slow make you fast?”

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-summing-up-part-1.html

You should read the whole series if you’ve got time.

motoguy128 · August 13, 2013, 12:58pm

The running plans I’ve seen all focus…just like cycling… on tempo and threshold workouts at much shorter distances to build strength, running economy, cardio and fatigue resistance focused on your goal pace. Longer runs are to acclimate your legs to longer durations, but not at goal pace.

Remember you only have to cover the race distance once, at race pace and and that’s in the race.

X100 on losing weight. The single greatest improvement I’ve made to my running. However, you have to stay above a threshold of BF% where you still generate good power, not compromise your immune system, get injured etc. because you body start consuming muscle and bone tissue to survive.

An_Old_Guy · August 13, 2013, 1:34pm

How can I target my goal race pace of 6:55 then? Wouldn’t I need to be training close to that pace to get my body use to it?

The more training you do at a 6:55 pace, the easier it is to run at a 6:55 pace everyday, and the easier it is to run your race at 6:55 pace.

If you want to run at 6:55 pace, go out and run at 6:55 pace for as long as you can comfortably. As you get into better shape you will be running longer at that pace.

There is no need to run race distance at a 6:55 pace everyday, but it does not hurt.

For those who think running slow is better: Marathon race pace for the winners is around 5:10. Running at 6:55 is really slow.

UltraToneLoc · August 13, 2013, 2:28pm

You can’t compare the winners to everyone else. Sure 6:55 is slow to the winner, but not to the guy asking the question, that is his goal race pace. Running race pace everyday just breaks down the body and you get injured. PERIOD. The winner doesn’t go out and run 5:10 pace everyday. There are race specific workouts that you might run a few times before the key race. Such as a 5 - 8 miler at close to race pace but that is done only a handful of times before the race. Maybe 3 of those workouts total in a 12-16 week build up to a 13.1 race. Something similar to what marathoners do. They typically will do a 10, 12, 15, and even maybe an 18 mile race “simulation” where they practice pacing, fueling, etc. But those are spread over a 20 week build up for that marathon.

The idea of running slow is to develop the aerobic system and teach your body to burn fat as fuel. When you go out and run faster than this easy aerobic pace, your body burns more carbs for fuel so you have to rely on gels, etc. And it takes longer to recover from those runs. Running 20 miles at a super easy pace is easier to recover from that 10 miles at close to race pace. I agree that its about getting your body to maintain pace, not about getting faster. I’m sure you have plenty of speed to run faster than 6:55 pace for a 5k. We are trying to develop your system to maintain that pace for 10 - 13.1 miles.

Your body will get fast on a remarkably low amount of speed work, trust me. I ran my 13.1 PR in February of 2011 just off of base work. I had done a few of the workouts mentioned above such as 3 - 4 x 2-3k w/ short rest at current/goal race pace. this was included in my “middle of the week” long run (typically 75-80 minutes) and then would do an easy 90-120 minutes of running on weekend. I ran 1:12:00 for the half marathon and my typical long run on weekend was around 7 - 8:00 minute pace per mile depending on who I was running with, weather, and how I was feeling.

diddo on the hill sprints and strides. LOVE THEM. It takes a few weeks to feel a difference but am a strong believer.

OldFart · August 13, 2013, 2:33pm

How can I target my goal race pace of 6:55 then? Wouldn’t I need to be training close to that pace to get my body use to it?

The more training you do at a 6:55 pace, the easier it is to run at a 6:55 pace everyday, and the easier it is to run your race at 6:55 pace.

If you want to run at 6:55 pace, go out and run at 6:55 pace for as long as you can comfortably. As you get into better shape you will be running longer at that pace.

There is no need to run race distance at a 6:55 pace everyday, but it does not hurt.

For those who think running slow is better: Marathon race pace for the winners is around 5:10. Running at 6:55 is really slow.

Old guy do you offer coaching? I would love for you to help me, especially if we can stick to the training methodology I highlighted above.

Also. When you say marathon race pace for the winners is 5:10, is that all marathons, the marathon the OP is running (oh wait he is not running one and never mentioned winning it)???

Decided to just pull marathon results from this last weekend. Picked 1 on West coast, one on East coast and 1 in middle of country.

Krater Lake Marathon in Oregon: Mens winner 2:58:22 (6:48/mi)

Around the Lake Marathon in Ma: Mens winner 2:44:01 (6:16/mi)

Paavo Nurmi Marathon in Wisconsin: Mens winner 2:35:44 (5:56/mi)

so again. pace for marathon winners is 5:10. Hmmmm I guess there are plenty of races that you can win yet not be a winner according to you.

UltraToneLoc · August 13, 2013, 2:34pm

sorry for 2nd straight post but forgot to mention. your weight is fine. You might drop a few pounds, but just do it by cutting out dessert 2-3 times a week or skip something that you don’t really need. Maybe eat some veggies instead of bread/pasta with some dinners. You don’t need to be like the elite runners that are 5’7" - 5’10" and 135-145.
You are 6’1" 168 seems like a pretty good number. If you said 175 or higher, then I might have agreed with previous guys.

An_Old_Guy · August 13, 2013, 5:11pm