A quick question for anyone out there who does 400s as a track workout.
Do you run your 400s at a speed quite a bit quicker than your race pace (say 68-70s if you race a 10K in around 35:00) or do you do them just marginally faster than your race pace in givin distance you’re racing for*(you race at 6min mile so 400s in 1:30)?
I personally go for the faster interval, still try to keep it to about 1:00 min rest, maybe 1:30. Noone ever wants to do them with me (training with Xterra and Olympic distance folks) and the few that do want to use them to learn pacing for thier racing. Running 400s that correspond to your race pace seems of little use to me as you don’t even really get all that tired at that pace.
Opinions??
Did 6x1200 this morning instead of the 400s but I still miss those 400s…
I used to be a 400 junkie. Except for the occassion 1000 meter repeats I did these all the time. My theory was, run them as fast as you can with minimum recovery and pretty soon you will be running close to your race pace/distance. So I would run 12x400 on 75-77 seconds with 20 seconds rest. The problem was, I really didn’t seem to be racing any faster.
The end result was that I became really good at running 12x400. I managed to run them all in 75 seconds at one point. Then I started running more miles and quit speedwork entirely for a while. After three months where I increased from 25 miles a week to 50 miles a week I revisited my favorite 400 and did 16x400, all under 75 seconds. So now I’m a believed that more miles will get you farther than any kind of interval run in any manner you choose.
Having said that, Ed Eyestone, who coached the Marine Corps Regional running program, always gave us workouts that would allow for roughly the same amount of time running hard vs. recovery. So if you ran your hard 400 at 70 seconds then your recovery would be 70-75 seconds.
Frankly, after some coaching advice from desert dude this spring, I’ve completely changed my focus on intervals. He had me do four or five x400 at a little faster than race pace for running and 4-5 x 5 minutes at a slightly higher power output on the bike. Four or five weeks of that was enough for me to be tuned up for duathlon nationals.
Now my new motto is Just Say No to year-round interval training.
My favourite track workout is 10-12 x 400 with 1 minute rest interval. I go for the speed on them and not pacing so run them as hard as you can for 10. If you want the bike to run transition to feel easy then being able to run at a pace that is way faster than your triathlon race pace sure helps. Of course, I’ve neglected my 400s the past 2 years since they don’t help too much in IM races and I miss them this year since my annoying hamstring is not letting me do them
I never got much out of 400s. I think they are best for milers and 3,000-meter runners.
I prefer 200s and 800s. Do 8-12x200s at a tad faster than mile pace with lots of recovery (so if a 5-min. mile is your best, run 200s at about 35 seconds (4:40 pace) with 60-90 sec. recovery). Don’t sprint, work on form. Only the last 10 seconds should wind you.
The 2 types of 800s (5 or 6x800s):
20+ sec. faster than 5K pace with tons of recovery (2-3 minutes) or
a bit slower than 5K pace with minimal recovery (30-60 seconds). More like tempo or “threshold” running. I think 200s and 800s are great training for 5 & 10Ks.
If youre going to run that workout, 10x400 w/ a minute rest, there is no reason to run them at 10k race pace unless its the week before the race and you just want to stretch out. If you’re going to run that workout, you should run around mile race pace to the most physiological benefit out of it.
With that having been said, that does not mean it is a good workout for you to do. If you’re training for sprints, then yeah, I’d suggest doing it a few times a year towards the end of your season when you are aerobically fit and want to sharpen up the speed.
However, if you’re training for longer races and still want to do 400s, I’d suggest doing more repeats, like 20, and taking a shorter rest. For example, for Olympic Distance or early season sprint training, try 20x400m around your 5k race pace with a 100m jog in between. This workout will get you used to running fast and holding a pace when tired.
Repeat 400’s are usually considered an anaerobic workout, or neuromuscular workout. During any part of your training other than taper, these won’t give you much benefit. If you are doing extremely short runs in your race (ie less than 5K), these may be somewhat useful, but still it’s debateable. I think it is best to do repeat K’s, or even more distance. In college I never ran shorter than an 800 for a track workout, prior to my taper (hills are a different story). If you feel the need to do workouts that will get your legs moving quicker, do strides a couple times a week. Also, another good workout is short, super fast steps as if you were running in place. This teaches you to keep your foot on the ground as short as possible. Practice good running form when you do this.
As one ages (take a look at my screen name) I think you have to keep reminding your muscles what speed feels like or they will settle into a middle age comfort zone. This may sound unscientific but I’ll be darned if I’m going to let my muscles win this battle without a fight.
As one ages (take a look at my screen name) I think you have to keep reminding your muscles what speed feels like or they will settle into a middle age comfort zone. This may sound unscientific but I’ll be darned if I’m going to let my muscles win this battle without a fight.
This is dead on. I do 400’s 2 different ways. 4x400, all out (which for me at age 42 is 62-63) with 4 minute rest. Pure anaerobic. Also do 12-20 at 5K pace with 35-40 seconds rest (VO2 max stuff). At my age, I think it’s absolutely necessary or you will settle into the old man shuffle.
As for the previous poster who said their use is debatable - I couldn’t agree less, and I can point to Daniels, Lydiard, and mostly Jumbo Elliot who all have a place for them in their training regimens
In college we ran them at about our 10k pace minus 7-10 secs per 400 so 5:35 per mile would be run at about 5:00 pace or 75 secs. This was strictly running and is pretty much the text book way - for triathlon I would still run them fast if you are training for Olym distance or shorter and the rest should be about a 200m jog. I don’t believe in standing around unless you are doing mile repeats or longer. IF you are racing longer distances then 800s, 1ks and miles are better in my opinion. I know lots of tri guys who do absurd #s of 400s - like 25-30 - maybe it works for them (?).
Mike
Repeat 400’s give you a false sense of fitness as my coach says and I am really beginning to agree with her, in running olympic distance races you need longer intervals, in college we would do longer repeats (mile, 1200’s etc.) and were were training for 10k, I have been doing workouts like: 2 mi, 1 mi, 2mi or 2k, 1k, 2k (before less important races earlier in the year or 3x1k) then moved to broken miles, then broken 800’s, and am finishing up in my taper weeks to my A race with 600, 400, 200 a few times through to get that really quick turnover and speed. I had not run well in a few years and after starting with her this year my confidence is comming back and I am running faster than I ever have.
Branden
Side note: she was a former professional runner has faster PR’s in most distances than just about everyone on this forum, I would bet, held American records and was a damn good triathlete at the end of her athletic career.
I think your coach is right in that you can’t use them as a good gauge of fitness (unless you are running the mile). However, that doesn’t mean they aren’t beneficial. I should note though that I set my 8K PR last year exactly 4 days after my best 4x400 workout since high school. On the other hand, I’ve had decent 4x400 workouts and then stunk up the place on my next race.
"Having said that, Ed Eyestone, who coached the Marine Corps Regional running program, always gave us workouts that would allow for roughly the same amount of time running hard vs. recovery. So if you ran your hard 400 at 70 seconds then your recovery would be 70-75 seconds.
Frankly, after some coaching advice from desert dude this spring, I’ve completely changed my focus on intervals. He had me do four or five x400 at a little faster than race pace for running and 4-5 x 5 minutes at a slightly higher power output on the bike. Four or five weeks of that was enough for me to be tuned up for duathlon nationals."
Chad…Ed’s version of the 400s is how I’ve always done them…I never understood the short rest 400s…too much like a really hard 15-20minute tempo that way…I prefered the tempo…
Prep for LC nats has included 8 weeks of track work and 6 weeks of 6x3-5min hill climb (aero pos for the last 3 weeks) up the hill toward TBS from the 95 overpass…
Pretty close to what you’ve outlined…track work was split 3 ways between short, 1000s, and mile repeats…obviously because this is a longer race…
VM
“As for the previous poster who said their use is debatable - I couldn’t agree less, and I can point to Daniels, Lydiard, and mostly Jumbo Elliot who all have a place for them in their training regimens”
In no part of any of Lydiard’s books does he advise such short anareobic workouts prior to taper, like I said. If Lydiard had his way, we would be be in base mileage doing up to 15 or more miles a day with short Fartleks interspersed for as long as we could, and only peaking for one race a year. You might be mistaken with my comment. I said that they aren’t of a benefit prior to your taper. As far as Daniel’s goes, he also doesn’t recomend such short workouts until phase III of his programs. And they still are recomended only for 800 to 1500 meter runners. I understand people want to be doing speedwork, but triathlon is an endurance event. Therefore, longer repetitions and intervals are much more suitable for a typical triathlete.
Funny thing about me, I believe in interval workouts even for IM training, and I believe in pretty standard sub-5K pace 400’s with medium rest (jog 200).
That’s pretty vanilla as far as track stuff goes. I also believe in 1k’s and 800’s and miles and just about anything and everything you do on a measured course with training partners who motivate and push you.
When prepping for my PR mary, we did 2,3,4,5,6 laps then added a 7 the next week and yanked the 2, then added an 8 and yanked the 3, descending from race pace. We also did 1,2,3 mile intervals, then 2,4, then 1,5, then straight 6 at race pace.
I don’t have a great IM run split yet, but someday maybe that will happen. Otherwise, just about all of my running goals have come true, though I’d really like to crack 16 someday.
I think the last time I got passed on the run was IMAZ by a chick. That was pretty cool. But, usually, if someone passes me, I get them back. Pain tolerance is an essential element even in long course racing. Sometimes you have to dig deep for a hill or to get past a rough spot. Having done the speed training will give you that edge.
Also, for running marathons, you want to feel as comfortable as possible at race pace.
Wow this an amazing amount of feedback for a non bike related post;) I’m really glad to hear all the responses and will try to make use of them in future workouts.
been doing mainly 1200s and 1600 repeats, often at the park on grass based on time (ie. 1200 is 4:00) and they do seem to be working. I just miss the 400 speed.
Maybe true about Lydiard’s books, but I’ve heard him speak, and he certainly was in favor of some pure speed (even during base work, and also anaerobic work as key races approach. I didn’t realize you were talking only about the taper - my bad.
I still disagree about the utility of of 400’s or other short/fast intervals for distance races. I believe they are essential, not so much for jacking up an anaerobic system that you probably won’t use in a pure endurance race (unless you are sprint finishing), but for forcing your body to develop efficiencies that make you more economical, and use less of your resources. People talk about having a smooth pedal stroke and how that saves energy - same with running, and intervals are a great way to force your body to develop some. Running out of yoru comfot zone forces you to relax your hips, lengthen your stride, increase your cadence, and relax your upper body, and every single one of those adaptations is important even in Ironman. I think the single biggest mistake poor runners make is that they never learn to run fast, never get efficient, and never improve much.
