I’ve just been watching some Total Immersion videos and one thing that seems very different is the kick
its not a constant kicking action but kick, pause, kick, pause…
I’m wondering if there is any advantage for triathlon between any of the two kick methods?
I suppose constant kicking is like high cadence on the bike and run, high cadence seems to be the thing at the moment
hmmm
/poders
Swim smooth will give you a much better base to learn from than total immersion. That s my opinion. Even better, work with a local coach.
my swimming is fine thank you, I was just talking about the different kick styles
do you have an opinion on them?
The question is less a Total Immersion vs. Swim Smooth, but more about using a 2-beat kick vs. a 6-beat kick. In both situations you need to work on integrating the “rotational kick” with the body roll – one stroke and one kick with the 2-beat or one stroke for every 3 kicks with the 6-beat. The problem that I have with most of my triathletes focusing heavily on kick cadences is that their kicking mechanics are bad and they over kick due to balance and other issues. Telling them to do a 6-beat kick tends to exhaust them, hinder any rotation, and generally produces little extra forward propulsion. If the kicking motion is inefficient – too much knee – it will actually slow the person down by widening the body tube. This issue is akin to problems in the other sides like breaststroke where the kick is too wide.
Full disclosure: I’m a Total Immersion coach and I’ve been using it as a swimmer and a coach for the last 15 years. We teach the 2-beat kick because it’s easier for our swimmers to integrate into the stroke and it fits in with the concept of spearing that we build into the stroke. If I have a swimmer who comes from a competitive background who is used to using a stronger kick, I won’t alter it because they are generally comfortable with a steadier cadence.
My suggestion as a coach is “take it out and then put it back in.” Work on the other aspects of the stroke – balance, streamlining, timing, breath integration, and catch/rotation integration – first while reducing your reliance on kicking to just enough to support your back side. As you become more efficient, effective, and faster in the water, start to work on rotational kicking and see if the 2-beat or 6-beat works best for you. In the meantime, do lots of balance drills and vertical kicking to address any issues with your kicking form that will cause you to slow down by kicking outside the tube. As the other issues resolve, you’ll be ready to do the other issues.
In summary, I think kick cadences is the “cherry on top” for triathletes. My experience with teaching 1000s of them over the last 15 years is that there are usually bigger things to tackle. I would need to see your stroke before taking the next step. I’ve had lots of success with swimmers of all ages and skill levels teaching the Total Immersion method – from newbies to kids who went to the Olympic Trials. While I haven’t done a lot of teaching with the Swim Smooth drills, I think the TI progression is stronger. If it wasn’t, I wouldn’t use it.
Hopefully this was helpful.
sorry Anth
i was no making a judgement on your swimming. I m not aware of your level but as you asked about total immersion, i conclude you were in the early stage of learning. i was responsding to your question. in my opinion, total immersion is target new swimmers with very little concept of swimming and teach concept that i do not agree with. On the other hand, swim smooth is a much more solid educational/concept that apply to beginners all the way to professionals. I have no relation to any of those 2 website/company.
so if you want to focus on your kick right now, swim smooth as a more solid base.
I second with Fitz. It’s not SS vs TI kick - it’s two, four, or six beat kick patterns. Although the 2BK requires the most balance, TI starts swimmers with the 2BK early to tie kick with body rotation, engaging large muscle groups of the core, swimming with whole body coordinated movements. SS believes the 2BK is only reserved for advanced swimmers, but they also characterize the flutter kick and 6BK as the same - they’re not. 6BK (one kick per side) is timed with rotation, the flutter does not necessarily have any timing with rotation and swimmers with un-timed kick often kick with wrong leg that inhibit rotation.
This question was good timing since USMS just published a piece on “Kick Timing 101” that describe the two, four, and six beat kick patterns: http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?aid=3061
This article was written in response to a frequent question I get on deck (and email): “What is a 2, 4, 6 beat kick anyway”?
Others have raised some good points.
I can give you my opinion as well.
But do you want various opinions or do you want data? If you want data, the answer is out there. Just look at elite or very fast distance swimmers (800m, 1500m, etc.) that are similar in height to you. Look at what most of them do with their kicks. Lots of good HD videos available on youtube, you might even have some very fast distance swimmers in your masters group. If so, spend some time on deck, look closely at what they do.
That’s what works, and what wins races.
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hmm is right. One morning this summer I clicked the dock video and thought I would parody the “TI” style into swim “Gangnam style”. A bit disturbed I know.
But the truth is I learned it wasn’t half bad way to go about things. It’s all about losses or gains due the hydrodynamics (front and kick). If the kick is costing you drag, then the two beat spurt-spear style is pretty efficient way to go. And with the wetsuit not many kick up a storm.
Thanks for posting the article. Just so we know what we are looking at - can you analyze the kicks P1-P3 on this 800M race clip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHbNKX3VkIM
my coach says kick timing will develop over the years of practice, so she doesn’t meddle with the heads of her swimmers wrt to kick timing.
Thanks all, some interesting points of view and articles
I’m curious if the different kick patterns have any effect on the bike and the run.
I hear a lot of people saying (in Triathlon) the kick isn’t important and its better to save your legs. That seems to make a little sense to me, but has it ever been measured?
Would a 2BK be more economical than a 6BK?
I dont think we can look at “swimmers” in isolation, they may be fast, but when they get out the water its chill time 
edit
I should learn to google I’ve got about 8 tabs open at the moment, lots to read.
Depends on distance. My philosophy is that the kick is a tactical tool you have available for if you want to catch a pair of feet, or get rid of someone on yours. Or turn it off when you want to conserve energy.
Hi SharkFM:
You’re welcome, hope it helps.
This is an excellent clip from 2012!
L3, Ledecky, quite fascinating kick pattern. She switches between 4bk and 6bk, but appears predominately 4BK. Notice the single kick down on right leg as she rotates to left edge as chin follow right shoulder to breath, the next kick on left leg down to rotate to right edge followed by two stabilizing kicks (4BK). However, the last 25-30m, Katie turns up the 6BK. L4, Adlington, consistent 6BK. L5, Fris, consistent 4BK
Here’s a short clip of Lindsey Benko, 2BK to contrast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYKBfXM5Ckk
Re: Coaching kick timing. Coaches are different in their approach. In general it seems many coaches avoid kick timing and allow it to (or hope it will) happen naturally. I encourage kick timing and ability to switch between 2, 4, 6 BK at will with my squad. But I also know how to describe and demo all three patterns and have a progression for a swimmer to easily achieve good kick timing (2, 4, 6 BK), and continued refinement.
Stuart
For what it’s worth, I go back and forth between kicking 2, 4, and 6 beat kicks, and sometimes not really kicking at all, at races just for the fun of it and depending on conditions and how I’m feeling. I really don’t notice any fatigue in my legs unless I’m really, really, givin’er with the kick for an extended period. Once on a rather long OW swim I didn’t really kick much at all, and wouldn’t you know I developed a massive foot/calf cramp towards the end of the swim!
I’m around a 1hr IM/30 min HIM guy… reasonably fast for a triathlete, but pretty slow for a real swimmer :).
I approached swimming having a dance background. I was a breaststroker, so didn’t have a habit of 4 or 6 beat freestyle kick patterns. I could swim 1 or 2 laps and then needed to rest.
I learned TI swimming, learned the 2-beat kick (which I think can be learned by beginners - perhaps having a swim racing background actually makes it harder to learn the 2-BK) and can now swim a mile in 35 minutes, no stopping, no anxiety. And I became a certified TI coach.
I’d suggest that swimmers who have a 4 or 6 beat kick might try to master the 2-BK as a learning experiment. With 2-beats, it’s easier to feel and improve the connection of hips to shoulders, and the timing of the arms. Then - I’d say, add back the extra kicks in a pattern that keeps the integrity of “core powered” swimming. You will probably keep the “accent (hip drive) on count one” as dancers might say…
I like to watch Sun Yang swim the London 2012 Olympics with his mashup of 2- and - more beat kicking: http://youtu.be/T5FlDy3YmDQ You definitely see the hip/arm/shoulder connection; the fewer strokes per length of pool. Some of the fast swimmers around him look inefficient.
I approached swimming having a dance background. I was a breaststroker, so didn’t have a habit of 4 or 6 beat freestyle kick patterns. I could swim 1 or 2 laps and then needed to rest.
I learned TI swimming, learned the 2-beat kick (which I think can be learned by beginners - perhaps having a swim racing background actually makes it harder to learn the 2-BK) and can now swim a mile in 35 minutes, no stopping, no anxiety. And I became a certified TI coach.
I’d suggest that swimmers who have a 4 or 6 beat kick might try to master the 2-BK as a learning experiment. With 2-beats, it’s easier to feel and improve the connection of hips to shoulders, and the timing of the arms. Then - I’d say, add back the extra kicks in a pattern that keeps the integrity of “core powered” swimming. You will probably keep the “accent (hip drive) on count one” as dancers might say…
I like to watch Sun Yang swim the London 2012 Olympics with his mashup of 2- and - more beat kicking: http://youtu.be/T5FlDy3YmDQ You definitely see the hip/arm/shoulder connection; the fewer strokes per length of pool. Some of the fast swimmers around him look inefficient.
Oh gosh, Sun is a complete outlier and he is not "gliding" as in TI. He can kick faster than 95% of triathletes. .............Don't mean to be snarky, but you are up to swimming 35 min without stopping.....and your a coach?
read this thread with a graint of salt, 3 total immersion instructor registered today in slowtwitch to come comment on this thread. there only post on the forum.
Yes, at 35min for a mile, i would be cautious as taking this as a success story. i would more see this as a problematic in her swimming. It dosnt mean that she cant be a great coach. but her swimming style might perhaps not be working…
Jason and a few others have mention the proper way to go. Very important to learn to use different kicks for different situation. And there is no single style that will do for any swimmers…it s a case by case in my experience.
Thanks and nice observation on the recent logins :o ) It also seems that TI people like to always trot out Sun as using TI,gosh
.
I did a quick look and have seen no studies on 2 beat or 6 beat kick in triathlon.
In the progression of a new adult swimmer I often see the nervous kicks, I try to get those folks to relax their kick if not change their actual kick rhythm to 2 beat. But for your typical high functioning adult onset swimmer I am looking for a 2 or 4 beat relaxed kick. I think relaxed is more important than the number of beats.
At some point if the person continues to progress you need to look at re-emphasizing the kick again. But increasing kick frequency is usually the last thing I would look at for an adult onset swimmer.
As for looking at 1,500 swims and seeing what those folks do, that’s true to a point, but even better would be to look at triathletes at the front of the group rather than swimmers. Harder to come across those videos.
I approached swimming having a dance background. I was a breaststroker, so didn’t have a habit of 4 or 6 beat freestyle kick patterns. I could swim 1 or 2 laps and then needed to rest.
I learned TI swimming, learned the 2-beat kick (which I think can be learned by beginners - perhaps having a swim racing background actually makes it harder to learn the 2-BK) and can now swim a mile in 35 minutes, no stopping, no anxiety. And I became a certified TI coach.
I’d suggest that swimmers who have a 4 or 6 beat kick might try to master the 2-BK as a learning experiment. With 2-beats, it’s easier to feel and improve the connection of hips to shoulders, and the timing of the arms. Then - I’d say, add back the extra kicks in a pattern that keeps the integrity of “core powered” swimming. You will probably keep the “accent (hip drive) on count one” as dancers might say…
I like to watch Sun Yang swim the London 2012 Olympics with his mashup of 2- and - more beat kicking: http://youtu.be/T5FlDy3YmDQ You definitely see the hip/arm/shoulder connection; the fewer strokes per length of pool. Some of the fast swimmers around him look inefficient.
Oh gosh, Sun is a complete outlier and he is not "gliding" as in TI. He can kick faster than 95% of triathletes. .............Don't mean to be snarky, but you are up to swimming 35 min without stopping.....and your a coach?
I know what you meant but just want to point out that Yang is a faster kicker than 100% of triathletes.
: o) … I meant him.kicking, triathelte swimmig free. Even then