To what extent should a parent's love be 'unconditional'?

TL:DR Is it fair to expect a nearly adult teenager to be doing things around the house and to act civilised towards their family in return for ongoing support and favors? Our perception is that his world is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

I’ve written a lot about my 17.5 yo’s mental health issues here. The toll it has taken on our split family, but his mother in particular, is significant. We are all down to merely existing these days. We do our best to at least give the younger two some respite when we can find the energy.

He is back attending weekly therapy, but that will cease mid this year when he turns 18. To be honest, neither his mother or I feel like it makes any difference, because we see no evidence of change. When we do get to speak to his therapist, they will talk about how he has made great inroads. All we see is a moody young man that does what he likes, doesn’t lift a finger, demands things and then turns angry and violent (to his own belongings) when we refuse.

Hot topic 1:
Over the Xmas break I brought him into my office, taught him some basic CAD skills then gave him some drawings to progress for my civil engineering projects. The hope was that maybe we could engage him as a vacation student on a minimum wage and give him some purpose. But I wasn’t going to have him be a burden on our drafting department. He was keen and did put some effort into it, but he was hot and cold. He had my old lap top and could run the programs from home but he would still make that work around his own ‘life’. In other words, he would continue sleeping in until 11am (or later), maybe do 1-2 hours, go to the gym for 3 hours or so (don’t ask), then start again at like 9-10pm. Of course I would need to authorise his remote logins and at times I would miss the notification. This really didn’t work for me because we had actual drafters that would do the work if I could not get him to beat them to it. The remuneration was difficult to calculate because he was so hot and cold and at times I would finish off things myself. As an hourly rate, it was not much at all, but then even when he was in the office I would see him on the phone, staring out the window (it IS a great view) and otherwise distracted. So I could only imagine what he was like at home when no one was watching. Anyway he has been accusing me of not paying him for all his work. For my part I saw it as training him up to give him more meaningful, formal work. He got about $350 for the experience, spread thinly over a few weeks of sporadic work.

Hot topic 2:
He has been hounding me for access to the modest sized portfolio I set up for each of the three kids. It’s got perhaps $7k in it. He wants it to buy a car. He hasn’t got his licence yet because he doesn’t have the hours accumulated. We don’t feel inclined to take him driving much because he doesn’t do a single thing to help anyone or clean up around the home. He basically thinks it is his and I am holding it from him. I did say years ago that I was setting them up to use for big things like education, a first home deposit or (yes) a car. But given his actions and current state of mind I feel it would be irresponsible to just let him at it. I see him buying something that could turn into a lemon (I know nothing about cars), and just continuing to drive to the gym or to otherwise non-constructive destinations. He claims he needs it to get a job (i.e. an apprenticeship). I pointed out that thousands of people get to work by public transport every day. I’ve told him when he’s strung together 6 months of consistent, constructive behaviour we can talk about it.

He told his mother that all we do is attack him and that we don’t support him. We feel we’ve put our lives on hold for him. We tried a new private school, we took him to army cadets which he quit on, we’ve given (or found) him work which he’s quit on. We have attended copious therapy on his behalf. We got him gym membership. In return we get a seemingly violent, selfish child that has everyone walking on eggshells. He bullies his mother into taking him to the gym (perhaps 1.5 km away by foot) and she relents because she can no longer deal with his angry outbursts. The only time he comes out of his room and opens his mouth it usually starts with “Can I please have…” or “Can you please take me…”

His mother is broken. I went around this morning with some takeaway breakfast hoping to talk to him about our last communication. To try and point out that there was a difference between attacking someone’s character and pointing out unacceptable behavior. It was 10am , he’s asleep in his bed with the airconditioner cranked on him. He mumbles “No” when I ask him if he wants the food I brought. I go see his mum with her coffee. She too is laying in her bed staring into oblivion, not wanting to talk ‘about it’.

I don’t feel like caving into his demands is going to solve anything. It certainly won’t ‘buy’ sustained, good behavior. In my view it is fair to impose conditions and limits to support. But then I know my cynical outlook on life these days can cloud better judgement.

I don’t know what you’ve written about in the past, but in this particular instance I don’t see much about what your son’s goals are. I see a lot of you trying to set up things that you think he should do. Which obviously isn’t working.

He’s old enough that he needs to learn how to self direct. What does he want to do? Help him come up with a plan to get there, and expect that he fails. It doesn’t matter what the goal is, but he has to want to do it. Ideally it should be big enough that he’ll have to follow through on the fun stuff and the boring pieces. Make sure he knows that failure is ok, but that every failure should have some kind of a takeaway.

My 2c.

Edit; and as for the title……always.

I don’t have many answers but I share your frustration with my own kid, though he is younger and more in the early stages of not knowing how to process corrections and as anything but personal criticism. That’s a tough place to start from, especially with mental health problems muddying the waters.

TL:DR version of my thoughts: based solely on what I read here, he’s entitled and heading nowhere good fast. Unconditional love doesn’t mean unconditional financial support or unconditional tolerance of antisocial behavior. It’s an exceptionally tough age for both him and you; if he were 22 I’d say out you go, keep fucking around and find out life lessons fast and hard. Not so easy at 17.5 (I emancipated at 17 and supported myself but I realize that every situation is different and not everyone can manage that at that age–but it was the best life lesson imaginable, as FA always came with FO and you correct course internally rather than having asshole parents tell you what to do).

I think the kid needs some tough love and a zero tolerance policy regarding anger, bullying, and violence, for starters. People can be emotional terrorists with their family members and what you’re describing rings that bell for me. Some issues require infinite layers of nuance to understand and navigate, but that behavior is a hard stop for me. Treat people with respect, or you’re out of the house and on your own.

TL:DR version of my thoughts: based solely on what I read here, he’s entitled and heading nowhere good fast. Unconditional love doesn’t mean unconditional financial support or unconditional tolerance of antisocial behavior.

I definitely agree with this.

You don’t have to give in to every demand for your love to be unconditional. Nor does love demand perfect understanding. Kids in the teen years sometimes the best you can do is get them through it.

It is obvious you love your son you are trying everything you can think of to help. Leave any questions about how much you love him at that.

You already know that letting him just do what he wants isn’t helping him. So setting limits is perfectly fine.

If right now you son has to get his stuff together before you can help him, you can help his mother. Do whatever it takes to keep her functional and show her somebody loves her.

I was a total pain in the ass as a teenager and I can’t really remember why. I was into a lot of things I should’t have been and for no really good reason other than I wanted to fit in with a group.

Eventually new friends who had a different outlook on life and a family tragedy made me grow up and turn it around. People change when they want to change.

All I can say is don’t give up on him easily and I feel for you.

Great thought so far. I agree with a lot of what sphere said.

Sorry this is a struggle. It really consumes and takes a toll on all. I don’t know the answer, and the below would seem obvious and based on his personality won’t be this simple.

One thing i noted is you teaching him CAD and trying to get him started with some work. Totally get it, but you are still attached to him and that emotional relationship complicates things on both sides.

I wonder if a little stricter criteria to facilitate his life now might help. I don’t think 17.5 is old enough to just be out on keester. But reasonable for you guys to tell him he needs to come up with monthly rent. Make it small, like $200 (or whatever you convert that to). Come up with a list of things that you support for him that will be withheld otherwise. He will never be able to live for so cheap. He is not getting his portfolio. If we wants a car, he buys it with money he has earned like every other person. You are not oppressing him by making him develop self reliability. I would hope his therapist should support you if and when he complains about it.

And I agree with the others, unconditional love is always. Allows for the repeated offer and opportunity to be willing to help be a part of any solution even as relationships change and drift over time.

I think the question about love shouldn’t be at the center of this parenting issue. Your love for your child is a regular, stable thing. I think that’s a position you can establish and you should not move away from that position in any conversations and interactions. It’s not debatable.

You can manipulate your kid. Kids are not geniuses who are too crafty or smart for you. You can create conditions so they choose outcomes that are acceptable to you.

I was a total pain in the ass as a teenager and I can’t really remember why. I was into a lot of things I should’t have been and for no really good reason other than I wanted to fit in with a group.

Eventually new friends who had a different outlook on life and a family tragedy made me grow up and turn it around. People change when they want to change.

All I can say is don’t give up on him easily and I feel for you.

I can relate to this. I was an absolute handful until I was around 15. Constantly getting in trouble and getting suspended. I couldn’t focus in class and got pretty sub par grades.

Around the age of 15 I developed a crush and started “dating” this girl in another social circle. Her friends were all A students. They were involved in sports, they never got in trouble, they had a much longer leash with teachers and their parents because they were trust worthy, etc. It was this pivotal moment where I looked at the friends I had, who were losers, and I looked at this other group, who were clearly on a better path, and it made the choice pretty obvious.

I found positive outlets for my energy in sports and music, developed new friends from those activities, started getting A’s in school and just changed the course of my life. I’m actually still friends with that first girlfriend. Years later, she ended up marrying the brother of my next highschool girlfriend. The guys from my previous friend group… one got in to drugs and took his own life by jumping off a bridge, one guy is in and out of jail, not sure about the rest. I think I made the right choice.

As for unconditional love, I think you can love your kids unconditionally but still put up and enforce proper boundaries around their behavior. Unconditional love doesn’t mean being an emotional doormat, or never expressing anger or disappointment etc. I don’t think I’d be giving that kid the $7k for a car, personally. Someone else mentioned not knowing what the teen’s goals or ambitions are. I might start there (although I’m sure OP has tried all angles of addressing this).

I agree with what others have basically said. In your mind, you probably need to separate “love” from “giving him everything he wants.” Your love is unconditional, and there’s no “extent” at which that ends. Your tolerance of poor behavior and mistreatment of his family is not unconditional and certainly should have an extent at which it ends.

2 of my 3 kids, ended up getting therapy. One for anxiety and social issues. A co-worker had been through something similar several years before me. I recall listening to him, and just think wow that’s tough. Then got to go through it. When kids have that lack of drive, and mental health issues its hard. Having struggle with my own issues, it is amazing how hormones and body chemicals change who you are (I got to go through puberty a 2nd time at 50). I did have one kid with anger issues, but not out of control ones.

My first thoughts reading your posts, is what I perceive as an underlying concern for violent outbreaks from him. To me first and for most has to be the safety of your wife, and other kids.

Have you had discussions with him what happens at 18? We had established rules well before, and if not in college, then your working and paying rent. That basically forced my youngest to choose college (never got a license so getting to job was going to be an issue).

In college, she got better control and direction in her life, and engaged. She graduates end of the year, not sure whats next.

Have you had talk’s with him about what happens at 18? And yes, I know what hard getting 2 sentences from a kid can be. My wife use to be like she only tells you thing’s then when I tell her it took 3 days to learn she liked her math class, she was like oh. I learned from work it was important to understand how each individual likes to communicate and work to that. With each kid i have different apps that they “respond” to. But as 18 approaches, whats his plan?

I love all my kids, that does not mean I would let them do what ever. I will support when I can and when I feel that what they are doing is worth support.

Oh and my youngest is also a bed at 4am up at 4pm if she could, college has forced adaptation of that. Covid was normal life for her. She met her fiancé online lives 3 states over (met in high school, been dating 5yrs I think now, very nice kid). The world can look very different for kids today, there is a lot more flexibility.

so whats all that mean, I don’t know. You can only give so much, and then have to send him on his way if he is not meeting your minimal requirements. Because of legal things 18 is a big maker. I am not as big of a tough love, person anymore, understanding mental development way more now. But family safety has to be #1 (Both physical and mental). Seems you have given him opportunities, of which he has given up on, so what is his plan in 6 months? Does he know what your requirements are? Do you and your wife agree on these requirements?

Edit-- I don’t like the use of Favors, I think before 18 its all just part of being a parent. For the records my kids did next to nothing around the house, no real chores, or tasks, as long they were involved in school activities that was enough for me. But from entering H.S. they all knew what to expect for financial support post high school based on what they choose. I am a strong believer in limiting surprises, and treating them as smart people. Now financial terms have changed a bit based on that kids aptitude and scholarships and future. Is it all fair and even from a straight $ amount no, but from a support needed, path to success, it is.

I hope it gets easier and more manageable for you.

I didn’t see it mentioned, but at 17.5, isn’t he still in school full-time? i.e. generally still too young to be out there living independently. In the US, that would a senior year still in HS student. (Sure, there are exceptions of kids living on their own since age X, but still).

In school, I think peer groups are very influential. Kinda want to avoid the “wrong crowd” type of thing at that impressionable age. Can he be with kids that share his interests and are the “good” kids? Both of mine were into sports, and on their teams we also nudged them towards becoming friends with the “good apples” there. Doesn’t have to be sports, could be academics, band, music, etc.
… Like the other poster pointed out about his own experience.

Him doing CAD work at/for your office also struck me in a way that he might be too young for? Other adults are a different peer group to try to relate to, especially if he’s expected to perform like a real employee/hire for what he’s been assigned. You covering/finishing his work isn’t good - for him. I get that it’s well intentioned.

Yes, parent’s love for kids is unconditional. But that should be separate from setting expectations you have from them. It shouldn’t be a quid pro quo. Enabling bad habits or bad behavior, sometimes may just be easier, but it makes things harder later. He’s still young and there are more years ahead than behind for all of you.

Best of luck on all this.

Like others have said, don’t use “love” and “financial support” interchangeably.
Love is a feeling. Financial support isn’t a feeling.

It’s not at all unreasonable to expect and require that he act in a civil manner and do some things around the house. In fact, it’s unreasonable for anyone, of almost any age (basically except newborns) to live somewhere and NOT do some things around the house. Kids should at least help pick up their toys. Kids can put their dishes in the dishwasher. Teenagers can help with cleaning. Etc…

With your kid always feeling like he’s being attacked - any chance he has BPD? I have a sibling with this and my sibling behaves exactly like your kid. Has been holding my parents hostage emotionally for years - as your kid is. My parents are finally breaking out of it by setting some boundaries.

Can you set up some expectations and pair them w consequences for those expectations not being met? And/or rewards when they are? The 6 months of consistent behavior for car $ is a good idea but what does “consistent behavior” look like?

hope that helps… things for my parents look a lot like “no, we’re not going to change our plans to drive 1 hr to pick you up from your GF’s house bc you had a fight w her”, as an example. (My sibling is 27, by the way… if this sounds harsh… it isn’t, or, it is harsh but necessary for our situation)

You can unconditionally love your child and not like them. This may even be the norm. I spent years (from when she was 17ish to 24ish) loving but not at all liking my daughter. Your son sounds like a narcissistic asshole; there’s no shame for you in recognizing that fact. By allowing yourself to dislike him, you may be better able to love him.

It sounds like he has deciphered the code to dominate and manipulate the family to his ends. That can’t continue. Either he changes or he goes. I’d keep it very simple - define the expectations of him and illustrate the consequences. That gives him the autonomy to choose his outcomes. Than stick to your guns.

For my daughter, this meant she moved out at 18 shortly after she graduated high school. And the next few years were rough but they were on her.

We are good now although I still question many of her decisions and I don’t always like her. She’s 29 and i would say our relationship is the best it’s ever been. We were talking recently about life and death and things that matter … she said, “I was a real asshole, wasn’t I”

I answered honestly, “Yes, you were my love. Yes you were.”

Good luck. It’s a hard reality when our kids aren‘t who we want them to be.

If right now you son has to get his stuff together before you can help him, you can help his mother. Do whatever it takes to keep her functional and show her somebody loves her.

I’ll underscore that your first priority should be your wife and marriage. When your son gets out from under your roof, he’ll soon discover that people not related to him won’t tolerate his bad behaviour very long.

Love doesn’t require acceptance of bad behaviour; just the opposite.