Quite interesting, but if you look at IM Kona from the 17 races from 1986 until 2002, Tim DeBoom’s times have only been the 15th and 13th fastest in this time period and yet he has won the last two years. We hear the arguement that nowadays they don’t go for the record just the win yadayadayada… But for what ever reason, and despite a claimed good depth of field, the men are simply slower than previously. In sports you’re supposed to be getting faster all the time and break new records. The public expects this, but this doesn’t seem to be the case in triathlon. Couldn’t imagine the last Olympic games being slower than a decade ago. Not being derogatory, this is just an observation. Any thoughts as to why triathlon isn’t following most other other sports in this respect. Does IM Kona need a Mark Allen/LVL type time this year to maintain “credibility”.
Don’t think it needs a Mark Allen type to maintain credibility. I think the race speaks for itself.
However, to address your point of the times not getting faster, maybe we need to look at other sports. Are nba championship teams now better than the bulls in their hayday? Lance Armstrong has won five straight tdf’s and some people still don’t consider him one of the best riders ever. Has any American male swimmer been as dominant as mark spitz from way back when? I think all sports have champions. The difference is we only see the great ones (not to take from gretsky) once in a while. Let’s face it, Tim Deboom is an awesome athlete. So good, in fact, that no one in the world could do what he did the last two years (at least the tri world). He’s still not Mark Allen or Dave Scott. Record times are broken sometimes every few weeks, sometimes every few decades. But they are always broken. Will someone break 8 hours in kona? I believe someone will. Don’t think it will be this year (like Macca is talking about). Who knows when. But one of these years, some triathlete from another planet is going to come into this sport, stand on his head, shatter records, and make everyone else around him better.
I think back in the day the “very best” athletes had to do Kona due to the financial possibilities for the top athletes. Now, I think there are other alternatives for the top guys to make enough money without having to compete in Kona. I would state there are now a larger number of faster athletes, however, chose to compete in enough different venues that it is not as apparent.
cycling is similar. days are long gone that one person will be able to win a grand tour or two in a year while also winning a spring classic or two and a late fall race as well. There are too many fast specialist that don’t need to race all year financially.
I think swimming and cycling are good examples. Mark Spitz times wouldn’t make the womens team in 04. Lances times have mostly been the fastest on record.
I do think the tri times have something to do with everyone racing all out in the past versus watching the competition today. Also for Dave Scott at least IMH was the only race he trained for. If he did other races they were strictly build up for hawaii. These days most of the top racers want to do well at IMH, but is one of many goals.
One other variable to “explain” those “slow” times has to do with the big variable at Hawaii, the wind. Both of Tim’s “slow” wins were in particularly brutal wind conditions on the bike and both of his winning times were slower than his time in 2000 when he was second. (8:23) and 1999 when he was 3rd (8:25).
It is not possible to know how hard Tim has been racing or how good Tim is based upon his times those two years. He won so he was the best there was on those particular days. He is the champ until someone beats him or he retires. If the winds are ever reasonable again I think the times will come back down.
I wasn’t there, so what do I know, but I thought the winds last year were supposed to be mild (by Queen K standards). Natascha’s split certainly leads one to believe that the winds weren’t at an all time howl.
“Natascha’s split certainly leads one to believe that the winds weren’t at an all time howl.”
Interesting to note that Natasha’s 2002 IM time was the 7th fastest on record. All six times faster were set by Paula Newby-Fraser. However, her bike split was the 2nd fastest ever set by a woman, and I believe was the 6th fastest over all in last year’s race. http://www.terra.es/personal/jlpenag/tri_iron2.htm
The winds were not a factor in 2002, but the humidity (due to a lot of rain the week prior to the race) and the rough swim made that race difficult.
Haim
i didn’t check your link. but in the official results, natascha’s bike split was listed as 41st overall.
and the winds in 2002 were indeed relatively mild. nothing like 2000 or 2001.
I could be wrong about 2002 over all bike split, but as Natasha’s time was only seven minutes slower than Tim’s, so I would be surprised that if it was only 41st over all. I don’t have the full 2002 results handy so can’t say. Assuming Tim must have had a top ten bike split it does seem unlikely that over thirty other riders would finish within that seven minutes ahead of Natasha, but again, I don’t have the full results.
From the results zt Xtri, of the top 23 men, 22 had faster bike splits than Natasha.
Regarding the wind, while I was not on the course, my memory of the reports during the race (and the video) was the gusts were worse in 2002 than 2001. I think the reports were 50 mph gusts in 2001, 60 in 2002. In Kona, of course, it was pretty calm. Natasha was 10 minutes faster than the next woman. You know there were some other men who were also faster on the bike so 41st or whatever seems about right. But, what she did on the bike in those conditions was still amazing.
in 2002, tim deboom had the 17th fastest bike split. 4:45:21
like i said, natascha was 41st. 4:52:26
frank, i think you are confusing 2001-2002 with 2000-2001. last year (2002), the winds were pretty mild. there was pretty much nothing on the queen k on the way out. there was some mild stuff up to hawi and a moderate headwind back into town, but nothing like the two previous years.
I don’t think I am confusing years. I just remember the reports we heard. i was not on the course. If it was a mild year wind wise, something else has to explain the relatively slow time.
in 2002, tim deboom had the 17th fastest bike split. 4:45:21
like i said, natascha was 41st. 4:52:26
frank, i think you are confusing 2001-2002 with 2000-2001. last year (2002), the winds were pretty mild. there was pretty much nothing on the queen k on the way out. there was some mild stuff up to hawi and a moderate headwind back into town, but nothing like the two previous years.
Right - in 2002 the bike was calm, but humid. The top runners said the run conditions were the worst in memory due to the sun coming out right after the rain and cranking up the humidity. Ask Macca about how the run felt…
Despite reportedly good bike conditions, Natascha didn’t do any damage to Paula’s bike records.
As for this continual ragging on Deboom’s “slow” winning times…get over it. The Ironman isn’t a time trial – it’s a race. And a footrace at that (in the end). The point is to win, not to win by 30 minutes and set records. There is way too much at stake to risk blowing up and losing when you’re Tim Deboom and no one can run with you. Move 3 minutes up the road and stay there. On the bike, give 'em 8 minutes and hold it till T2. Contrary to popular belief, Tim D can, in fact, bike with the top riders. He’s just been too smart to bother.
Natascha might be able to do some damage to the women’s records if she was able to sit on Paul Huddle’s wheel for the whole bike.
And I think Julian may be on to something re. Tim Deboom’s bike prowess. Just because he doesn’t ride with Macca and Larsen does not mean he CAN’T ride with Macca and Larsen. The kid has a huge motor.
This has nothing to do with this thread (except that it’s about Tim). I was just looking at old Triathletes, and I came across this quote from him:
“He got off the bike and was kind of hobbling,” said DeBoom, who was in transition seconds later. “I know he’s had some foot problems, so I just called him a tenderfoot and took off” Running 5:39 miles, DeBoom moved steadily away from the field to take the win.
Two things. First I got a good laugh out of that, and second I wouldn’t call 5:39 miles slow :o
Indeed it is interesting that times have not advanced beyond what the top men were doing 10 - 15 years ago. I don’t want to discredit the current group of top ranked men at all but here goes on some observations:
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The conditions are extermely variable and not just year to year but hour to hour out on the course - that’s possibly why the women racing about 30 - 60 min behind the men may have “better” results in the same year. Just a thought.
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I believe the current guys are going hard, but I do believe that the racing has become more tactical and the key us being well positioned at the end of the run to then run to the best of their ability for a high place. Reid, Brown and DeBoom have this game well figured out.
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Everyone keeps going on and on about how the big cyclists are going to come in and turn the race completely around. This has yet to happen. The closest this ever came to happening was when Hellreigel had the 13 - 14 minute lead at t2 over Allan, and The Grip still ran Hellreigel down. This lead me to believe that you would need to have close to a 20 minute lead off the bike, and then still be able to run just under 3:00 for the win - a formidable task!
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Related to #2 is the stakes have become significantly higher - win and it’s a huge homerun. Finish 8 - 9th and you will not even cover your expenses. Thus the strategy becomes more important than an all-out-go-for-it effort.
Just some personal thoughts/observations.
Julian, I have always appreciated your comments and enjoy your contributions to the board, so please don’t take offense from this, but…
What I hear you saying is that we aren’t seeing all Tim’s got. Aren’t you a little offended by that? Doesn’t that just speak of complacency at the top ranks of our sport? This is our world championship. It may be true that due to the significance of the event (and the payout to win) that the pro’s are only racing to win, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it.
When the winner crosses that line, I want to know that I’ve seen the best he/she could do. The strategy isn’t the issue, look at the women, Natascha and Lori have very different strategies, but at the finish line, I think we’ve seen the best race that each could bring.
I accept that the fastest historical times may be the result of lax enforcement of the drafting rules, so some of the Mark Allen numbers may be suspect in terms of course records. That said, what I want to see is what we’re currently seeing in the international marathon scene. People want that world record time. Each time it’s broken there is a group that brings their game to a higher level. The fact that we don’t have that in long course triathlon isn’t entirely on Tim’s shoulders, but I think it’s a factor.