https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/03/03/alto-cycling-spins-disc-wheel/
.
Please let me know if you have any particular questions about the new disc! It took us over a year to develop, so I’m always happy to chat about the details.
Thank you!
Awesome, Bobby! nice looking wheel.
https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/03/03/alto-cycling-spins-disc-wheel/
To a certain extent, I’d say the issue here is one of total possible “savings.” I.e., the absolute variance from the most vertically compliant wheel (that’s also reasonably stiff torsionally and laterally) to the least is really just not that high. And once you start talking about a disc, there’s really only so vertically compliant you can make it.
Ultimately, if you want a more comfortable ride out of your disc, the easiest solution is just to put a slightly wider tire on it. Tire construction/width/pressure all have way more effect on vertical compliance than wheel and frame choice.
I did an article on this for LAVA and spoke to Mark Cote extensively about the design of the Roubaix, which was designed with a huge focus on vertical compliance. And the Roubaix does have a lot of vertical compliance… for a road frame. But it’s still far less than what you can get simply from tires.
Please let me know if you have any particular questions about the new disc! It took us over a year to develop, so I’m always happy to chat about the details.
Thank you!
Bobby, thanks for answering questions. I guess my first question why the name Alto. Whenever I see the wheels immediately I think “stop”. Why should customers choose this wheel over an aerodynamically proven Super9 that is often as light as 1115 grams for a clincher version. Or why choose it over the 21mm ID HED JET+ Black which offering tremendous stopping power thanks to the textured aluminum brake track? Do you have any aero data and specifically testing with different tires. Which tire is the best?
I’m excited to see tubeless specific wheels aimed at TT and Tri folks and this is the first tubeless disc that I’ve seen
.
Please let me know if you have any particular questions about the new disc! It took us over a year to develop, so I’m always happy to chat about the details.
Who is making them and where? Do you own the molds? Is anyone else using the same molds?
I’m excited to see tubeless specific wheels aimed at TT and Tri folks and this is the first tubeless disc that I’ve seen
This one came out in August 2016.
I’m excited to see tubeless specific wheels aimed at TT and Tri folks and this is the first tubeless disc that I’ve seen
This one came out in August 2016.
I looked at the Dash. I don’t want to see weight, I want to see aerodynamics. Go to the tunnel and find out which tire is fastest and let us know. Test the wheel by itself and then in some frames, maybe procure a test dummy and test with a dummy aboard.
Please let me know if you have any particular questions about the new disc! It took us over a year to develop, so I’m always happy to chat about the details.
Thank you!
Bobby, thanks for answering questions. I guess my first question why the name Alto. Whenever I see the wheels immediately I think “stop”. Why should customers choose this wheel over an aerodynamically proven Super9 that is often as light as 1115 grams for a clincher version. Or why choose it over the 21mm ID HED JET+ Black which offering tremendous stopping power thanks to the textured aluminum brake track? Do you have any aero data and specifically testing with different tires. Which tire is the best?
Hey Thomas, I’m happy to be on the forum!
Wind tunnel testing on wheels must be done on a frame-specific basis. Putting a wheel in the tunnel and running laminar flow over it is not a proper test, and means nothing. We do our wind tunnel testing for our specific athletes, and can see if our wheels perform better or worse for their specific set up. But we can’t translate those results to other athletes. The reasoning is because the amount of turbulence surrounding a Trek is different than a Cannondale, different than a Specialized, etc. The ideal rim shape is depended upon which frame it’s being used on. So we do our CFD analysis and design our disc to best in the majority of scenarios, but to say that the Super9 is “aerodynamically proven” is not accurate because there are too many variables.
What we can say is that the bracing angles achieved through the geometry of the carbon shell are identical to that of our spoked wheels. A stainless steel spoke and UD fiber act in a similar manner (tension), they simply have different elasticities. But the design concepts are the same, and the testing results are the same. Our disc wheel is more responsive (torsionally and laterally) and has the best power transfer of any disc on the market. It’s 25mm wide, tubeless compaitable, and has an asymetric lenticular shape that allows it to have a more stable road contact patch. And we achieve this while still have a full PMI high density core, as opposed to a flexible fairing on top of a spoked wheel. That is certainly the biggest difference between Alto and HED.
Regarding braking power - the main reason composite manufacturers use a textured surface is because it is a bladder molded part that has too many internal voids and defects to spec a high density pad. You can run any carbon pad on our products, but we supply a Black Prince pad from Swiss Stop. A quality pad with a high Tg resin (240 C) means that you can get better braking power without risking delamination or cracking, which can’t be done on bladder molded parts. And I’d argue that a textured aluminum surface is overkill, because standard aluminum brake tracks already perform well enough to lock up the wheel, and the friction between the tire and road becomes your limiting factor.
I hope that helps! Please let me know if you’d like me to expand on any of those points, I’m more than happy to go into more detail!
Please let me know if you have any particular questions about the new disc! It took us over a year to develop, so I’m always happy to chat about the details.
Who is making them and where? Do you own the molds? Is anyone else using the same molds?
We do all of our metal working in Sarasota, FL, and all of our composite work at the Topkey facility in Taiwan. We cut out own molds and own them. The composite shell replicates the geometry of our patented rear hub shell that you see on our standard rear wheels. As far as I know, we are the only asymmetric lenticular disc with a high density PMI core, and it results in a really special ride quality!
I’m excited to see tubeless specific wheels aimed at TT and Tri folks and this is the first tubeless disc that I’ve seen
This one came out in August 2016.
And the Flo discs months before that.
And we achieve this while still have a full PMI high density core, as opposed to a flexible fairing on top of a spoked wheel. That is certainly the biggest difference between Alto and HED.
Why is that better?
Wind tunnel testing on wheels must be done on a frame-specific basis. Putting a wheel in the tunnel and running laminar flow over it is not a proper test, and means nothing. We do our wind tunnel testing for our specific athletes, and can see if our wheels perform better or worse for their specific set up. But we can’t translate those results to other athletes. The reasoning is because the amount of turbulence surrounding a Trek is different than a Cannondale, different than a Specialized, etc. The ideal rim shape is depended upon which frame it’s being used on. So we do our CFD analysis and design our disc to best in the majority of scenarios, but to say that the Super9 is “aerodynamically proven” is not accurate because there are too many variables.
I have more questions later, but for now. Given this is always going to be ridden in the back, would you say the same statement regarding wheels is invalid if you are testing front wheels? Do you have any apples-to-apples data for the front wheels you can share. Also, why the name “Alto”. Again, when I think of “Alto” by instinct I start hitting the brake pedal. Legitimately curious why “Alto”.
Please let me know if you have any particular questions about the new disc! It took us over a year to develop, so I’m always happy to chat about the details. Thank you!Is this kind of like the carbon rims that took over a year to develop but share the exact same shape as stuff from ICAN and IMUST who released it long before you?
And we achieve this while still have a full PMI high density core, as opposed to a flexible fairing on top of a spoked wheel. That is certainly the biggest difference between Alto and HED.
Why is that better?
It essentially comes down to power transfer and mechanical efficiency. A full composite layup will always be stiffer and more responsive than steel, assuming the ply orientation is correct. And, of course, we can forget about the aesthetic appearance of the wheel! In my opinion, a fairing is only ever used if a company is trying to cut down on SKU’s and find a cheaper solution to expand their product line.
And we achieve this while still have a full PMI high density core, as opposed to a flexible fairing on top of a spoked wheel. That is certainly the biggest difference between Alto and HED. Why is that better? It essentially comes down to power transfer and mechanical efficiency. A full composite layup will always be stiffer and more responsive than steel, assuming the ply orientation is correct. And, of course, we can forget about the aesthetic appearance of the wheel! In my opinion, a fairing is only ever used if a company is trying to cut down on SKU’s and find a cheaper solution to expand their product line.Wow. . .how do you sit down with b*lls that big.Come into the market with clearly open mold rims.Spew stuff about how it took you forever to develop them.Trash talk Hed claiming they are just trying to find a cheaper solution to expand their product line!It’ll be interesting when they start enforcing the patents they have for brake track angle as the rims you “developed” are in clear violation of that patent.
Do you have any testing that confirms that this improvement in mechanical efficiency exists (including energy return after deformation) and that it is of a magnitude that matters?
I appreciate a company that figures out a way to deliver a wheel that is as fast as the best-in-class but much more affordable. Managing inventory intelligently should certainly be part of that, so I don’t know how it could be a negative.
Wind tunnel testing on wheels must be done on a frame-specific basis. Putting a wheel in the tunnel and running laminar flow over it is not a proper test, and means nothing. We do our wind tunnel testing for our specific athletes, and can see if our wheels perform better or worse for their specific set up. But we can’t translate those results to other athletes. The reasoning is because the amount of turbulence surrounding a Trek is different than a Cannondale, different than a Specialized, etc. The ideal rim shape is depended upon which frame it’s being used on. So we do our CFD analysis and design our disc to best in the majority of scenarios, but to say that the Super9 is “aerodynamically proven” is not accurate because there are too many variables.
I have more questions later, but for now. Given this is always going to be ridden in the back, would you say the same statement regarding wheels is invalid if you are testing front wheels? Do you have any apples-to-apples data for the front wheels you can share. Also, why the name “Alto”. Again, when I think of “Alto” by instinct I start hitting the brake pedal. Legitimately curious why “Alto”.
If you’re only testing the front half of the wheel then you are absolutely correct. But it would require the wheel to literally be cut in half. Once the air reaches the fork, everything will change. And the way that the flow attaches itself to the down tube is extremely important, and dependent on the shape of the down tube and how turbulent the air is coming off of the tire.
Maggie Rusch, Cody Beals, and Joe Skipper have all done their own wind tunnel testing, but I don’t have copies of their results. I’ll check in with them so see if they’d like to weigh in!
Alto, in latin, means “to elevate.” The brand was originally Alto Velo, so it meant “to elevate cycling.” As engineers, it’s crazy to see how bad the wheel industry has gotten in terms of re-branding product that already exists. Nobody was design anything with real intent, or to solve any sort of problem. We only exist because we wanted to try to change that, and design product that we felt served a purpose. That’s why we chose the name. We were sued early on for trademark infringement (that’s a discussion/thread for another day!) and changed to Alto. I understand that it has different translations in different languages, but that’s what it means to us!
Please let me know if you have any particular questions about the new disc! It took us over a year to develop, so I’m always happy to chat about the details. Thank you!Is this kind of like the carbon rims that took over a year to develop but share the exact same shape as stuff from ICAN and IMUST who released it long before you?
Why would a company founded by two engineers, with two design patents and the backing of an investor, purchase open mold rims? I spent time actually working in the Topkey factory on frame design, most likely on some of the bikes that you’ve ridden. I don’t know what ICAN or IMUST does, but I can assure you that everything we are doing has been designed by us.